this is a sad state of affairs

[puunui]

I travel the world and never find negativity toward Taekwondo. What I find is a great interest from the multitude of people who attend international Taekwondo events. I do find negativity on the internet coming from behind a keyboard from people who do live in a true "perfect little world" and never venture out of that safe, protected little world. A perfect little world would be the one small and unknown tiny world, outside of the 80 million members and 200 nations. My experience is not from some backyard BBQ at the Budweiser Hoe Down, but that is just me, not everyone.

Exactly.

 

[dancingalone]

If I'm not mistaken, somewhere in his lineage somebody was influenced by western boxing, which I was told several years ago (cannot remember by who; might have been Exile or Dancingalone, but it's been over three years) in a thread that that was what distinguished their 'American Taekwondo' from KKW and Chang Hon. Kicks are not removed, but the high kicking is not as emphasized and there is, as I recall, more of a ballance between hand/arm techniques and foot/leg techniques.


Actually, it sounds like an independent school using Chang Hon forms, which I believe are open source.

Yes, I believe TF and I studied much the same TKD system. It's the Jhoon Rhee/Allen Steen lineage in Texas which eventually evolved over the years adding Western boxing among other influences. The lineage/style was quite famous during the Blood and Guts era of sport karate producing some noted practitioners like Pat Burleson (he was a Golden Gloves boxer so maybe the boxing came from him), Skipper Mullins, and Demetrius Havanas. People have called it American Tae Kwon Do at times, following Jhoon Rhee's lead, and it has been affectionately nicknamed Tex Kwon Do, the name meant to convey more of a Lone Star flavor to it than really saying anything about a lack of kicking within it. Though certainly, the method of kicking and training kicks is not the same seen currently with Olympic TKD athletes.

The forms used are the Chang Hon forms, though I've never encountered any school in the lineage that actually uses all of the Choi forms. They seem to top out after 4-5 of the dan hyung and then supplement with some Japanese forms like Tekki, Bassai Dai, and Kanku Dai. No sine wave as Jhoon Rhee learned the forms without characteristic ITF movement.

 

[puunui]

My thought is that many on this board, without necessarily knowing what it entails, would welcome a stronger presence from the KKW in the daily running of their dojang. (Although I am not sure their sabum agree!) Things like a more comprehensive KKW-endorsed curriculum or a stronger credentialing process for low dans and possibly even geup ranks.

We're getting there. As more time passes, taekwondo becomes more and more unified. I notice that the next generation of kukki taekwondo instructors want to be in compliance with kukkiwon standards, something that their instructor and/or instructor's instructor wasn't really interested in. Ten years ago, we had much more disharmony. Today, with assistance through things like the kukkiwon instructor courses, world poomsae championships, etc., practitioners are beginning to understand what kukki taekwondo is about. And they like it.

I can understand the apprehension regarding competition under the wtf rules. Competition has evolved such that without training, it is difficult to get. If you do not understand the concept of stance and steps as well as roundhouse kick, then the probability of doing well is low. In fact, the probability of losing badly is very high, as is the probability of a knockout. It is a scary thing to be in a ring with someone who is obviously more familiar with the rules than you are, and have training to maximize effectiveness using those rules. Dr. Jin Bang YANG, the current executive director of the KTA, likened learning sparring in the old days as being thrown in deep water and being told to swim, with little or no instruction. Many people sank under such circumstances, if they ever got into the water at all.

But there is hope. There is a lot of instructional video and dvd out there now, many on youtube. Still I do believe that instruction on the basics from an experienced instructor or coach is necessary. Sometimes all that is needed is simple things, a proper stance, a proper roundhouse kick, how to hold a paddle, the importance of being a good training partners for paddle and hogu drills, ten basic hogu drills for attack and defense. People take that, a lightbulb goes off in their head, and suddenly instead of fighting it because they don't understand it, they bloom. I have seen it time and time again.

That will be one of the keys to rebuilding USAT in my opinion, offering opportunities to develop those basics so coaches and competitors can bloom.

 

[puunui]

No sine wave as Jhoon Rhee learned the forms without characteristic ITF movement.

I don't think anyone taught GM Rhee those Chang Hon tul. In fact, he told mastercole, myself and others at a USTU tournament that he learned those forms by himself through a copy of the ROK Army Field Manual. Also, GM Rhee didn't seem to have any problems with competition under the WTF rules, because he was showing up to every USTU event that we had for a while there. We all saw him do his 100 push ups numerous times at USTU events. He also used to visit the kukkiwon since the earliest days.

 

[puunui]

Whether or not it is really taekwondo kind of depends on how you are using the term I suppose. This has probably been asked of you before, and probably by me, but do you view taekwondo as more of an umbrella term or as a term for a specific art?

I view the term as being as inclusive as possible. But for TF, if he hates the direction that taekwondo is going, then he has an easy out, change the name to something more appropriate, like American Rearranged Shotokan Karate, which does rearranged shotokan karate forms and sparring which are much closer to shotokan sparring than the wtf rules. That way, no more conflict and no more reason or motivation to constantly criticize taekwondo.

 

[mastercole]

There was an Elvis Presley album with a similar title.View attachment 16104

Got to love that golden suit. This could be the new Ameri-Do-Te 4th Dan Master uniform. (will we see it in a video soon?)

I'm trying to imagine what the "4th dan Master" belt would look like

 

[dancingalone]

I don't think anyone taught GM Rhee those Chang Hon tul. In fact, he told mastercole, myself and others at a USTU tournament that he learned those forms by himself through a copy of the ROK Army Field Manual.

I remember having a discussion on this board on whether General Choi was in my lineage or not. I remarked at the time that General Choi was about as relevant on my TKD family tree as Funakoshi, Gichin Sensei, and that the Chung Do Kwan head (perhaps GM Son at the time?) was likely a much greater influence on GM Jhoon Rhee.

I don't really know what to think about General Choi after reading A Killing Art. Certainly he is given a place of honor in most TKD dojang of the same lineage I am.

Also, GM Rhee didn't seem to have any problems with competition under the WTF rules, because he was showing up to every USTU event that we had for a while there. We all saw him do his 100 push ups numerous times at USTU events. He also used to visit the kukkiwon since the earliest days.

He is a personable man or at least seemed to be when I met him as a young teenager for my chodan examination. He was kind to me after the test and gave me a few words of encouragement to keep on working.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I view the term as being as inclusive as possible.

So do you consider what TF does to be taekwondo? If not, what is the point of delineation that makes something 'not taekwondo'?

 

[mastercole]

Yes, I believe TF and I studied much the same TKD system. It's the Jhoon Rhee/Allen Steen lineage in Texas which eventually evolved over the years adding Western boxing among other influences. The lineage/style was quite famous during the Blood and Guts era of sport karate producing some noted practitioners like Pat Burleson (he was a Golden Gloves boxer so maybe the boxing came from him), Skipper Mullins, and Demetrius Havanas. People have called it American Tae Kwon Do at times, following Jhoon Rhee's lead, and it has been affectionately nicknamed Tex Kwon Do, the name meant to convey more of a Lone Star flavor to it than really saying anything about a lack of kicking within it. Though certainly, the method of kicking and training kicks is not the same seen currently with Olympic TKD athletes.

The forms used are the Chang Hon forms, though I've never encountered any school in the lineage that actually uses all of the Choi forms. They seem to top out after 4-5 of the dan hyung and then supplement with some Japanese forms like Tekki, Bassai Dai, and Kanku Dai. No sine wave as Jhoon Rhee learned the forms without characteristic ITF movement.

Interesting why it stops there.

As a side note: No one ever taught GM Jhoon Rhee the Oh Do Kwan hyung (chunji, etc) he learned them from a book.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Got to love that golden suit. This could be the new Ameri-Do-Te 4th Dan Master uniform. (will we see it in a video soon?)

I'm trying to imagine what the "4th dan Master" belt would look like

Elvis was promoted to 7th dan by Kang Rhee if I recall and was an honorary 8th dan in Parker Kenpo. His grandmaster dobok looked like this:
View attachment $Elvis.jpg

 

[mastercole]

I don't think anyone taught GM Rhee those Chang Hon tul. In fact, he told mastercole, myself and others at a USTU tournament that he learned those forms by himself through a copy of the ROK Army Field Manual. Also, GM Rhee didn't seem to have any problems with competition under the WTF rules, because he was showing up to every USTU event that we had for a while there. We all saw him do his 100 push ups numerous times at USTU events. He also used to visit the kukkiwon since the earliest days.

Yes, that was amazing hearing this first hand, he just opened up and started telling us all this history. I forgot about why we were there and just focused on what he was telling us.

 

[mastercole]

I view the term as being as inclusive as possible. But for TF, if he hates the direction that taekwondo is going, then he has an easy out, change the name to something more appropriate, like American Rearranged Shotokan Karate, which does rearranged shotokan karate forms and sparring which are much closer to shotokan sparring than the wtf rules. That way, no more conflict and no more reason or motivation to constantly criticize taekwondo.

American Rearranged Shotokan Karate. It's catchy.

 

[puunui]

So do you consider what TF does to be taekwondo? If not, what is the point of delineation that makes something 'not taekwondo'?

If you can trace your lineage to one of the five original kwan, then what you do, to me is taekwondo. We try to be inclusive as possible, and not exclude anyone, even TF. However, if he wishes to exclude himself, then no one will stop him, certainly not me.

 

[dancingalone]

Interesting why it stops there.

As a side note: No one ever taught GM Jhoon Rhee the Oh Do Kwan hyung (chunji, etc) he learned them from a book.

I imagine no one ever learned the higher Chang Hon forms and so they were never passed on.

Learning forms from a book...a time-honored tradition (see GM Hwang Kee as well).

 

[mastercole]

Elvis was promoted to 7th dan by Kang Rhee if I recall and was an honorary 8th dan in Parker Kenpo. His grandmaster dobok looked like this:
View attachment 16105

Perfect! I'll wear this to the next Bud Lite Tae Kwon Do throw down hootenanny, anyone going? I do a rearranged version of Koryo for the audience where I replace all them there flashy kicks with punches, lot's of punches. I'll punch to the East, I'll punch to West, hell's bells Ellie May I'll even punch the sky, and after a few Bud Lite's, I might even fight a Billy or two !

 

[oftheherd1]

And when taekwondo keeps punches in, it gets accused of being a rip off of karate.

I just found this thread and it's the end of my work day so I'm not reading it all. However, I am guessing you are referring to the sport side? I only took TKD briefly some 45 years ago. I never competed in a tournament as I didn't get above 8th Green. Some of our people who did commented on the fact that the Karate folks were scoring points on them as we emphacized foot use. The Karateist would close in and use their hands which we weren't so accumsomed to defending against in sparring. They were winning.

There have been many changes in TKD from what I have seen. More use of hands being one. Well, why wouldn't you use your hands? Who cares where it came from. To me, there is nothing wrong with using (or borrowing) from another art, something that improves your own art. I don't mean it should be changed completely but keeping your old name. I mean just incorporating some things whicy improve the efficiency of the art overall.

TKD has begun to learn what some of the moves in forms are for, and they arn't always classical TKD. But those who created the forms knew them apparently. That has led to many places incorporating more such moves borrowed from Hapkido or Aikido, or wherever. They may not work in sports, but why not teach them. Properly done, some can be used in sport sparring as well. It simply needs control which seems to be one of the things TKD has dropped.

Oh well, just my two cents, and remember, I am not a TKDist.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you can trace your lineage to one of the five original kwan, then what you do, to me is taekwondo. We try to be inclusive as possible, and not exclude anyone,

That includes technical variances, I assume. Appreciate the answer.

 

[Twin Fist]

funny how you two guys are always around to vouch for whatever the other one has to say...

at any rate, I dont give a ****. You could be the same person for all i care. Maybe i will just call you two Vinegar and Water

 

[puunui]

Yes, that was amazing hearing this first hand, he just opened up and started telling us all this history. I forgot about why we were there and just focused on what he was telling us.

It was at some USTU event, probably JOs. I believe Master Garth Cooley was there too, with his eyes wide and his mouth open, listening to GM Rhee say what he said to us. It was a short conversation, while we were walking. All those seniors had awesome stories to tell. I can't remember if you were there when GM CHOI Tae Hong told us about his training in Japan with Sensei Mas Oyama, who I believe was a cousin of his. We bought lunch, he was sitting by himself and he asked us to join him at his table. Hang around the pioneers, and it's amazing what you can learn. Better than sitting behind a computer using google as your main research tool.

 

[mastercole]

I imagine no one ever learned the higher Chang Hon forms and so they were never passed on.

Learning forms from a book...a time-honored tradition (see GM Hwang Kee as well).

I think GM Hwang had a burning desire to learn what he found in the Karate books. GM Rhee one the other hand said that in a letter that accompanied the ROK Army Field Manual, CHOI Hong Hi asked him to start using the name "Taekwondo" and start teaching the hyung's found in the manual. That was a directive from an ROK Army major-general to his ROK Army junior. As a side note: I don't think GM Rhee felt he was somehow going to gain new knowledge by following this directive, I do think that GM Hwang was searching for knowledge in those Karate books.