this is a sad state of affairs

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes, in the post of yours where you listed various techniques asking whether they were allowed in ITF sparring you came across as quite patronizing.

Pax,

Chris

It wasn't the intent. Sorry if you took it that way.

 

[mastercole]

Yes, in the post of yours where you listed various techniques asking whether they were allowed in ITF sparring you came across as quite patronizing.

Pax,

Chris

I don't think he did, it looked liked serious questions, enough so that I was curious to find the answer myself.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't think he did, it looked liked serious questions, enough so that I was curious to find the answer myself.

They were serious questions, and they were about karate and ITF, not just ITF, though Chris did address that element. I do have further questions regarding hand techs and ITF sparring.

The ones that he stated are legal, such as spear hand, ridge hand, knife hand, and arch hand. would be very difficult, if not impossible to pull off with gloves. I looked up sparring rules for the ITF and while I was able to find a pdf on the subject, it did not detail what techniques were actually allowed and what were not, nor what the target areas were.

Some of those techniques, such as the arch hand, are relatively ineffective unless they target areas that are probably not legal in sparring.

As I said, my original comment was regarding both Karate and ITF TKD.

Regarding knees and elbows, Chris is correct in pointing out that they are not "hand" techniques. But, are they taught in the ITF syllabus or in some of the more prominent karate ryus? I suspect that the answer is yes, given that they are also part of the Kukkiwon syllabus and factor into several of the pumse. If they are part of ITF and karate, are they allowed in ITF or karate sparring and can one score with them?

And what are the viable target areas in sport karate and ITF sparring?

 

[mastercole]

They were serious questions, and they were about karate and ITF, not just ITF, though Chris did address that element. I do have further questions regarding hand techs and ITF sparring.

The ones that he stated are legal, such as spear hand, ridge hand, knife hand, and arch hand. would be very difficult, if not impossible to pull off with gloves. I looked up sparring rules for the ITF and while I was able to find a pdf on the subject, it did not detail what techniques were actually allowed and what were not, nor what the target areas were.

Some of those techniques, such as the arch hand, are relatively ineffective unless they target areas that are probably not legal in sparring.

As I said, my original comment was regarding both Karate and ITF TKD.

Regarding knees and elbows, Chris is correct in pointing out that they are not "hand" techniques. But, are they taught in the ITF syllabus or in some of the more prominent karate ryus? I suspect that the answer is yes, given that they are also part of the Kukkiwon syllabus and factor into several of the pumse. If they are part of ITF and karate, are they allowed in ITF or karate sparring and can one score with them?

And what are the viable target areas in sport karate and ITF sparring?

Interesting subject. I'll start a new thread. ITF sparring rules.

 

[dancingalone]

When I took the ITF Umpire course last year I specifically asked about this. The presentation focused a lot on forefist punching, indeed it covered primarily front punches with the forefist when talking about punching. Master Muleta specified that any hand technique could be used (forefist punch, back fist, side fist, knife hand, reverse knife hand, long fist, etc.) and punches could come in any variety (front punch, crescent punch, upward punch, upset punch, etc.). The only caveat was that the attacking tool on the hand had to be covered, which basically leaves out the use of the palm, bear hand, or open fist. As for target area, I honestly don't know that that would be much of a factor in the majority of cases. The use of gloves would tend to open up possibilities rather than limit them, I think.

Hand techniques can also be used while flying and when landed they are scored higher than standing techniques. You'll often see ITF fighters go airborn in order to make up a deficit or cement a lead. Front punches are common here, but I've seen backfists score as well.

Pax,

Chris

Good information, thanks.

Regarding the legal target areas not being a factor in usage of certain hand techniques.... Well, I'm all for training for fit. Sometimes a vertical fist 'fits' better for a certain target at a certain angle than the horizontal fist does, which is a good argument for training both if you can. Same deal with the other more obscure strikes. The tiger mouth is a good attack against the throat. Would I use it against the torso? Well, probably not, so I doubt I would use it in a tournament either, wearing hand pads, aiming for the torso. Could you use it and score with it in a match? I suppose so - not optimal though.

 

[mastercole]

Good information, thanks.

Regarding the legal target areas not being a factor in usage of certain hand techniques.... Well, I'm all for training for fit. Sometimes a vertical fist 'fits' better for a certain target at a certain angle than the horizontal fist does, which is a good argument for training both if you can. Same deal with the other more obscure strikes. The tiger mouth is a good attack against the throat. Would I use it against the torso? Well, probably not, so I doubt I would use it in a tournament either, wearing hand pads, aiming for the torso. Could you use it and score with it in a match? I suppose so - not optimal though.

What you call "tiger mouth", or, agwison Kaljebi is likely a technique borrowed from Taekkyon of a similar name. Of course this technique is applied differently in Taekwondo, but in Taekkyon it was used against the body as a pushing motion meant to destabilize your opponent. There are other Taekkyon related techniques found in Koryo which is appropriate considering the name "Koryo" and the Poomsaeseon is the symbol for "scholar" or learned man.

A learned man, who studies deeply about Korea (Koryo) will come to understand Taekkyon's influence on Taekwondo, among other things.

 

[dancingalone]

And what are the viable target areas in sport karate and ITF sparring?

WKF does not forbid open hand strikes but they are not permitted to the face. No elbows or knees although sweeps and throws are allowed. Legal targets are the head, face, chest, abdomen, side, and back.

 

[puunui]

in point of fact, no, they are not TKD forms, they are re-arranged japanese forms stolen by korean martial artists who were shotokan stylists and didnt have the education or skill to come up with thier own material

I think you mean okinawan forms, not japanese. But in any event, which forms do you consider to be korean, if any?

in a Tae Kwon Do competition, advocating that half the art NOT be scored, which is what you are doing is RETARDED and it a betrayal of the art you claim to love.

The art that i claim to love isn't the same art that you claim to love. Frankly, I don't know if you love anything, because seems like every time I read a post of yours, it is highly critical and negative. That is a hard place to be, constantly at odds with the world, in my opinion.

TKD sparring without punches isnt TKD

Do you have anything to support your position other than you own opinion?

 

[puunui]

WKF does not forbid open hand strikes but they are not permitted to the face.

How does that work? No ridge hand to the face, but you can to the body? How about palm strike?

 

[dancingalone]

What you call "tiger mouth", or, agwison Kaljebi is likely a technique borrowed from Taekkyon of a similar name. Of course this technique is applied differently in Taekwondo, but in Taekkyon it was used against the body as a pushing motion meant to destabilize your opponent. There are other Taekkyon related techniques found in Koryo which is appropriate considering the name "Koryo" and the Poomsaeseon is the symbol for "scholar" or learned man.

A learned man, who studies deeply about Korea (Koryo) will come to understand Taekkyon's influence on Taekwondo, among other things.

While that is very interesting and I appreciate the information, my information on the tiger mouth strike didn't come filtered through taekwondo. The technique is found in karate. I use the term koko uchi, but I believe some styles do call it something else as well.

 

[Cyriacus]

Do you have anything to support your position other than you own opinion?

Ill support His Statement there, with this:

Because the only reason TKD wouldnt have Punching is if it was Deliberately, Manually Removed.

 

[Twin Fist]

I think you mean okinawan forms, not japanese. But in any event, which forms do you consider to be korean, if any?

the taegueks and up

MOST of the chong han are "borrowed" shotokan forms, except for hwa rhang, and chung mu, some of the dan forms were original is i recall correctly.

The art that i claim to love isn't the same art that you claim to love. Frankly, I don't know if you love anything, because seems like every time I read a post of yours, it is highly critical and negative. That is a hard place to be, constantly at odds with the world, in my opinion.

you damned sure dont know ME . Remember that. I AM highly critical of the KKW and the WTF it serves.

cuz they friggin SUCK.

1 year BB's

1st dan "masters"

BB's that cant punch

totally false and made up history

and you ENDORSE that ****.

thats true, your art isnt mine. My art is Tae Kwon DO

you endorse a "sport" that isnt an art at all.

and let me see if i can find small enough words for you to grasp

Tae Kwon Do

in the name itself, FIST

take out fists, it is not Tae Kwon Do anymore.

you cant argue with the friggin NAME dude

 

[dancingalone]

How does that work? No ridge hand to the face, but you can to the body? How about palm strike?

Sounds about right though I am no expert. Haven't attended a WKF tourny in years.

You can definitely score with either strike to the body. I've seen in the colored belt divisions people drop low to their knees to get a single point, striking with a heel to the gut.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Good information, thanks.

Regarding the legal target areas not being a factor in usage of certain hand techniques.... Well, I'm all for training for fit. Sometimes a vertical fist 'fits' better for a certain target at a certain angle than the horizontal fist does, which is a good argument for training both if you can. Same deal with the other more obscure strikes. The tiger mouth is a good attack against the throat. Would I use it against the torso? Well, probably not, so I doubt I would use it in a tournament either, wearing hand pads, aiming for the torso. Could you use it and score with it in a match? I suppose so - not optimal though.

I agree with you, largely. It's one of the reasons why pre-arranged sparring (3-, 2-, and 1-step sparring), semi-free sparring, and ho sin sul are very important aspects to training. One of the Training Secrets of Taekwon-Do is "To choose the appropriate attacking tool for each vital spot," after all.

I will say, the arc hand is used to attack the adams apple, point of chin, and upper neck, all of which are legla target areas in sparring. If you're going to attempt an inward travelling strike to the torso in a sparring competition instead of an arc hand I'd suggest using a reverse knife-hand. The formation is quite similar but has additional target areas (including the ribs).

The addition of a padded glove does allow a fighter to attack a wider variety of targets, even if less attention is paid to getting the proper "fit." I don't like it but there you go. One of the requirements for scoring is that the execution of the technique must be "controlled and in the correct target." The judges shouldn't score an arc-hand to the body but would score a reverse knife-hand. With a glove on it would be harder to tell which of those two tools were used, which is why more emphasis is placed on getting the hit. It's a trade off, and one I'm not thrilled with.

It's also one reason why I wouldn't mind seeing a bareknuckle category for sparring. The ITF already does run a full contact tournament circuit but it uses hand and foot pads.

Pax,

Chris

 

[MSUTKD]

Poomsaeseon is the symbol for "scholar" or learned man.

I think you mean yun mu seon, same a embussen in karate.

 

[puunui]

you cant argue with the friggin NAME dude

Actually you can argue with the name. The original name for the art, as announced by ROK President Syngman Rhee, was "taekkyon". Because hanja (chinese characters) were important at the time, a search was conducted for the hanja for taekkyon. There is none. So they went with the closest thing they could find, taekwon, which was supposed to stand for taekkyon. So really if you wish to be technical about it, the name of the art really is taekkyon or taekkyondo, not taekwondo. And beyond that, the intent of the name was for taekkyon, not "foot fist way". So there goes your "fist", if you are talking about focusing in on the name only.

 

[puunui]

thats true, your art isnt mine.

If your art isn't mine, then why the constant complaining and grumbling? No one cares what you do. Why do you care what we do? Do you even do taekwondo anymore? Aren't you a kajukenbo guy now?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Funny that you mention "foot fist way", because I can associate you with that movie for some reason. But even though the translation is roughly foot fist way, it does not infer or imply that it has to be 50/50 foot and fist throughout the art. Some areas can have more and other areas less. For example, poomsae is much heavily weighted towards hand techniques, with some kicks included. These include punches or strikes to the head, the throat, the legs, the groin, etc. In sparring, there is much more emphasis on kicks, with some punching. That is the balance in taekwondo; it doesn't have to be 50/50 punches and kicks in all areas. Even the forms you practice are not balanced fifty fifty.

Over and beyond that, no one really cares what you do in your own taekwondo. If you want to enter tournaments that punch to the head, go for it. If you do not want to enter tournaments using the wtf rules, then don't. No one will think less of you if you opt out of that. If you do not want kukkiwon certification, same thing, no one will bust on you for that. In fact, no one will think anything no matter what you do with your taekwondo. I know I am not sitting here in judgment of what you do or how you do it, whether you agree with me or not.

You somehow associate twin fist with "fist foot way?". Twin fist is against mcdojos, against kiddie black belts, against commercialisation, against black belts who cant fight, and basically against everything the dojo in that movie stood for, and somehow you associate him with that guy. Pot, kettle, black.

 

[puunui]

the taegueks and up

Which you don't practice right? Therefore, what you do isn't taekwondo, but rather some sort of reorganized shotokan, if you follow your logic through. Sounds like you need to change the name of what you do to something else. Perhaps "modified shotokan karate" would be appropriate, since shotokan allows punches and kicks to the head, which is what you like.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

you damned sure dont know ME . Remember that. I AM highly critical of the KKW and the WTF it serves.

cuz they friggin SUCK.

Groan. This is how my teenagers talk. Honestly, you make valid points or points that are worthy of discussion, but when you intersperse it with this sort of phrasing, you detract from those points.

1 year BB's

1st dan "masters"

BB's that cant punch

totally false and made up history

and you ENDORSE that ****.

First dan being addressed as master I really do not care for either. I'm not going to get upset over it though.

BBs that cannot punch is not org specific but school specific. I hold a first dan ranking in Kukkiwon taekwondo and believe me, I can punch. I've seen ten year olds in Kukkiwon taekwondo that can punch very nicely too. I've also seen twenty year olds whose punches look like wet noodles thrashing about. And I've seen it in both KKW schools and in non KKW and non TKD schools. That is an instruction issue and not an org issue.

Not going to get into the history discussion or what I think Glenn endorses in regards to it. I will only say that the history that is currently on the website looks okay. It isn't meant to be an exhaustive, detailed history, and is probably way more than they needed to post, but it does the job and it does nicely segregate modern taekwondo from earlier KMA while still connecting them.

thats true, your art isnt mine. My art is Tae Kwon DO

you endorse a "sport" that isnt an art at all.

and let me see if i can find small enough words for you to grasp

Tae Kwon Do

in the name itself, FIST

take out fists, it is not Tae Kwon Do anymore.

you cant argue with the friggin NAME dude

You are so focused with arguing about the sparring rules that you are overlooking the rest of the art. Sparring is only a part of Kukkiwon taekwondo and punches are a part of it.

Regarding the name, tae-kwon-do, if memory serves, it means to the way of trampling or crushing with the feet and striking or smashing with the fists. The description that Glenn gave of wearing down the body with powerful blows from the fist (destruction) so that the opponent is set up to struck by the foot (trample or crush) seems to fit that description, whether or not the punches are scored (currently they are), so I don't see why you go further than simply disliking the rule set.

I do happen to think that much of what you and I see as being 'wrong' with taekwondo is really McDojo-ism and belt factories, which are not limited to taekwondo. Outside of MA circles, most people really have no idea.

It's kind of like a good friend of mine who teaches guitar and has been playinhg for years. He tends to want to educate the audience when he plays out and has a lot of criticism of music today. Are his criticisms valid? Sure. Is he educating the audience? Not one bit. He plays overly complicated stuff that only other musicians who know music theory at his level will appreciate. Then he has a hard time getting gigs and gets upset that Nirvana got popular playing 2.5 chords with no solos.

Most martial arts practitioners that I meet in person have a great deal of respect for taekwondo and ask me a lot of questions about it. They really don't know all that much about and are happy for some first hand info. Most people looking at MA schools also seem to think that TKD is just peachy; they keep signing up and in greater numbers than at schools teaching other arts.