this is a sad state of affairs

[Daniel Sullivan]

Perfect! I'll wear this to the next Bud Lite Tae Kwon Do throw down hootenanny, anyone going? I do a rearranged version of Koryo for the audience where I replace all them there flashy kicks with punches, lot's of punches. I'll punch to the East, I'll punch to West, hell's bells Ellie May I'll even punch the sky, and after a few Bud Lite's, I might even fight a Billy or two !

Nope. Can't replace the kicks with punches. Elvis could kick. And when it comes to flashy, Elvis is its patron saint.

Intereting side note on musicians and kicking, one of my favorite musicians, Yngwie Malmsteen, frequently performs head level round house kicks while playing.

 

[Twin Fist]

this is exactly right

Allen Steen BTW beat Chuck Norris AND Joe Lewis in the same day to win Ed parker's international's in 64 i think (lemme guess, Vinigar and Water were there and were actually the coaches...../roll).

Pat Burleson was the first national karate champion

the best all around fighter of the 80's Troy Dorsey is from this lineage as well. He held titles in kickboxing, boxing, and point fighting simultaniously.

Ray McCallum is from this lineage.

Korea was only the beginning of our art, we made it our own

Yes, I believe TF and I studied much the same TKD system. It's the Jhoon Rhee/Allen Steen lineage in Texas which eventually evolved over the years adding Western boxing among other influences. The lineage/style was quite famous during the Blood and Guts era of sport karate producing some noted practitioners like Pat Burleson (he was a Golden Gloves boxer so maybe the boxing came from him), Skipper Mullins, and Demetrius Havanas. People have called it American Tae Kwon Do at times, following Jhoon Rhee's lead, and it has been affectionately nicknamed Tex Kwon Do, the name meant to convey more of a Lone Star flavor to it than really saying anything about a lack of kicking within it. Though certainly, the method of kicking and training kicks is not the same seen currently with Olympic TKD athletes.

The forms used are the Chang Hon forms, though I've never encountered any school in the lineage that actually uses all of the Choi forms. They seem to top out after 4-5 of the dan hyung and then supplement with some Japanese forms like Tekki, Bassai Dai, and Kanku Dai. No sine wave as Jhoon Rhee learned the forms without characteristic ITF movement.

 

[mastercole]

It was at some USTU event, probably JOs. I believe Master Garth Cooley was there too, with his eyes wide and his mouth open, listening to GM Rhee say what he said to us. It was a short conversation, while we were walking. All those seniors had awesome stories to tell. I can't remember if you were there when GM CHOI Tae Hong told us about his training in Japan with Sensei Mas Oyama, who I believe was a cousin of his. We bought lunch, he was sitting by himself and he asked us to join him at his table. Hang around the pioneers, and it's amazing what you can learn. Better than sitting behind a computer using google as your main research tool.

I remember other people being there with us, listening to GM Rhee, but I don't have a clear memory now of exactly who. For some reason I remember GM Joon Pyo Choi being there too, stand off to the side listening, but maybe not, maybe someone that reminds me of him. I do remember talking to GM Choi about Jidokwan at different times, but I don't know if it was there, or if I was at the table, I might have been. I do remember that I either heard or maybe he told me he trained with Mas Oyama.

 

[puunui]

Learning forms from a book...a time-honored tradition (see GM Hwang Kee as well).

If you are talking about GM Hwang learning from Funakoshi Sensei's book, that isn't entirely correct. GM Hwang learned the chung do kwan curriculum, at least part of it, from GM HYUN Jong Myung, a first generation student of GM LEE Won Kuk. GM Hyun and GM Hwang both worked at Seoul Station together.

 

[mastercole]

Speaking of tournament competition sport martial arts guys from an older time, I have see Allen Steen, Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Pat Burleson, Bill Wallace, Ernie Lieb and others fight in the ring, but I have only ever seen them fight against men. Maybe there two different "blood and guts" lineages?

 

[puunui]

this is exactly right

Allen Steen BTW beat Chuck Norris AND Joe Lewis in the same day to win Ed parker's international's in 64 i think (lemme guess, Vinigar and Water were there and were actually the coaches...../roll).

Pat Burleson was the first national karate champion

the best all around fighter of the 80's Troy Dorsey is from this lineage as well. He held titles in kickboxing, boxing, and point fighting simultaniously.

Ray McCallum is from this lineage.

Korea was only the beginning of our art, we made it our own

We?

But there you go again, more evidence that the name of your art is rightfully American Rearranged Shotokan Karate. All the gentlemen you mention above were karate champions, at karate tournaments.

 

[Twin Fist]

so John Chung, who won 1000's of forms titles at karate tournaments isnt a TKD BB?

i am sure he will be glad to know that......./roll

you are being obtuse, and it isnt helping your case

 

[mastercole]

We?

LOL! Who is "we"?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

so John Chung, who won 1000's of forms titles at karate tournaments isnt a TKD BB?

i am sure he will be glad to know that......./roll

you are being obtuse, and it isnt helping your case

There is plenty of obtuse going around. Maybe instead of returning obtuse with obtuse, we should simply respond politely and address the pertinent parts of the post.

 

[puunui]

at any rate, I dont give a ****. You could be the same person for all i care.

no, mastercole and I are not the same person. we don't even look alike, and live in different parts of the country. there are enough people on MT that know both of us personally. In fact, next time you speak to GM Jhoon Rhee, you can ask him. He knows us both. mastercole saw GM Rhee more recently than I though, at a taekwondo function at the Korean Embassy in Washington DC last year. When was the last time you spoke with GM Rhee, if ever?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

LOL! Who is "we"?

Presumably he and those in his lineage who teach that system of taekwondo.

 

[puunui]

so John Chung, who won 1000's of forms titles at karate tournaments isnt a TKD BB?

According to you, he probably is also a candidate for the American Rearranged Shotokan Karate name.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Really? Do we really have to go down this road?

 

[puunui]

you are being obtuse, and it isnt helping your case

I think that you feel it is "obtuse" because we are approaching or have reached the point where it is difficult for you to understand and/or continue with the discussion. We can tell this because you don't really respond to the points made, but instead choose to make baseless accusations such as mastercole and I are the same person. I can appreciate the difficulty of your position, when the head of your lineage (GM Jhoon Rhee) shows his approval of kukki taekwondo and competition under the WTF Rules by attending USTU events as often as possible. He's not against it, but you are, so how do you work around that? Apparently the answer is to accuse mastercole and I of being the same person.

 

[puunui]

I do remember talking to GM Choi about Jidokwan at different times, but I don't know if it was there, or if I was at the table, I might have been. I do remember that I either heard or maybe he told me he trained with Mas Oyama.

I think you were there. It was at the 2000 Olympic Team Trials in Colorado Springs, when everyone got their pictures taken with members of the Olympic Team wearing their olympic warm ups.

 

[Twin Fist]

i dont think you are the same person.I do however think are both products of the same cult

And Jhoon Rhee can do or not do whatever he wants to. We dont answer to him, we simply honor him as the origin of our system. But he is not the head of it, (we dont really have or need a head of system. That isnt the way it works in Texas)

His approval of the KKW, if in fact his does, (we just have your words for it, and thats of debatable value) doesnt effect me at all.

you are are being obtuse. And it isnt helping your cause. Instead of thinking you might have a point, now i think even if you cured cancer and solved for PI, i still wouldnt stop to speak to you on the street

I think that you feel it is "obtuse" because we are approaching or have reached the point where it is difficult for you to understand and/or continue with the discussion. We can tell this because you don't really respond to the points made, but instead choose to make baseless accusations such as mastercole and I are the same person. I can appreciate the difficulty of your position, when the head of your lineage (GM Jhoon Rhee) shows his approval of kukki taekwondo and competition under the WTF Rules by attending USTU events as often as possible. He's not against it, but you are, so how do you work around that? Apparently the answer is to accuse mastercole and I of being the same person.

 

[puunui]

i dont think you are the same person.I do however think are both products of the same cult

How so? No one tells us what to do or tries to control us in anyway.

And Jhoon Rhee can do or not do whatever he wants to. We dont answer to him, we simply honor him as the origin of our system. But he is not the head of it, (we dont really have or need a head of system. That isnt the way it works in Texas)

Yeah, yeah, I figured that. You answer to no one but yourself.

His approval of the KKW, if in fact his does, (we just have your words for it, and thats of debatable value) doesnt effect me at all.

GM Jhoon Rhee does like to interact with and socialize with kukki taekwondo practitioners. He shows up to tournaments, he goes to kukki taekwondo functions at the Korean Embassy, and really does not put out any sort of negative vibe towards the kukkiwon or wtf. I have some old photos and articles of GM Rhee visiting the Kukkiwon, which I will try to post. That way it won't just be my words, even though i don't see anything from your side to dispute my words. As for him affecting you, how could he - you don't even know him.

you are are being obtuse. And it isnt helping your cause. Instead of thinking you might have a point, now i think even if you cured cancer and solved for PI, i still wouldnt stop to speak to you on the street

What is "solved for PI"? And there is a cure for cancer, or at least a way to prevent it; cancer cannot live in an alkaline environment. As for not stopping to speak to me on the street, no problem.

 

[Twin Fist]

Pi, the mathematical theoum that cannot be....skip it


never mind. Good bye Water

 

[Sukerkin]

What are you chaps arguing about? Please don't tell me it's such ephemerals as unproven lineage? It's TKD for crying out loud; the whole art is based on a 'false' lineage i.e. it's karate in Korean clothes.

Speaking entirely as an outsider with no experience at all in the art, arguing lineage in TKD is as purposeful as arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic as it sinks .

Now I have successfully offended every TKD practitioner here {:angel:} and hopefully garnered some attention, can I just suggest that this line of argument has reached the end of it's use? Things can only get more unpleasant if they continue in this vein.

 

[mastercole]

i still wouldnt stop to speak to you on the street

I think we already know that, it's something that would take balls