this is a sad state of affairs

[mastercole]

Makes sense to me. I think a lot of the reason that people criticize the emphasis on kicking is that we're accustomed to boxing and the idea of a 'clean' punching only fight. We are also accustomed to wrestling, which is, of course, just wrestling. I'm not sure why a kicking only or a kicking mostly game bothers people so much. Maybe they feel that boxing more closely resembles a 'real fight' so they are okay with it? But since sporting events aren't 'real fights' I don't see what the big deal is. It's like saying that baseball is inferior to kendo because you can only hit the ball and not the pitcher.

I suppose that if a taekwondoist really wanted to enter such tournaments, they could locate open open tournaments and compete.

This is just my personal opinion, gained over decades of being involved in all this. I have found that those who never learned to kick correctly, or could not, are the ones that slam it the most.

Myself, I was a very good puncher, boxing and then Isshin-ryu was my first martial art. I was not the greatest kicker but I was smart enough to search out the greatest kickers, learn from them and pass it on to my students. If the students excelled and if I noticed they had great potential I sent them to train with elite Taekwondoin.

I never let my lack of kicking skill get in the way of making sure my students had the best chance possible.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As someone else pointed out a while ago, the difference is that everything in boxing's skillset is on display during a boxing match. They dont kick, but hey, boxing skillset doesnt include kicking so who cares. Tkd's skillset does include far more than just kicking and that is where I think the problem lies with a lot of people.

The question then becomes this: is sparring meant to represent the breadth of the art or is it meant only to showcase the art in some meaningful way? Sport karate and ITF rules do not allow for the full breadth of techniques either, but are set up to display the arts that they represent in a meaningful way.

If its just self defense that people want, I would frankly steer people away from any of the traditional martial arts. Not that you can't defend your self with MA training, but the teaching pedagogy is geared towards training fighters and towards training people to be better people, as well as teaching cultural elements, not training a person to take care of themselves in the circumstances that they are most likely to encounter.

 

[Twin Fist]

last time i checked it was tae kwon do

foot

fist

way

not foot way

foot FIST way

you no punches types are only doing half the art. in short, you are not doing tae kwon do, you are doing korean kickboxing

at least have the decency to admit it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

last time i checked it was tae kwon do

foot

fist

way

not foot way

foot FIST way

you no punches types are only doing half the art. in short, you are not doing tae kwon do,

But they aren't saying 'no punches,' but 'punches for setting up and wearing down your opponent so that you may score with a kick.'

Huge difference. No punches creates setting up with positioning only. There would be no wearing down of your opponent with blows that that are not scored unless you are kicking to illegal target areas.

you are doing korean kickboxing

at least have the decency to admit it.

Well, if there really are no punches, scored or otherwise, then it wouldn't be kick boxing, but foot fencing.

What you advocate is actually kickboxing, which is essentially what karate tournament rules and ITF tournament rules amount to. Let's face it, there are tons of hand techniques in both TKD and karate that are prohibited in karate tournaments and in ITF tournaments.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Let's face it, there are tons of hand techniques in both TKD and karate that are prohibited in karate tournaments and in ITF tournaments.

How many "tons" of hand techniques are prohibited in ITF tournaments?

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

last time i checked it was tae kwon do

foot fist way

not foot way

foot FIST way

you no punches types are only doing half the art. in short, you are not doing tae kwon do, you are doing korean kickboxing

Funny that you mention "foot fist way", because I can associate you with that movie for some reason. But even though the translation is roughly foot fist way, it does not infer or imply that it has to be 50/50 foot and fist throughout the art. Some areas can have more and other areas less. For example, poomsae is much heavily weighted towards hand techniques, with some kicks included. These include punches or strikes to the head, the throat, the legs, the groin, etc. In sparring, there is much more emphasis on kicks, with some punching. That is the balance in taekwondo; it doesn't have to be 50/50 punches and kicks in all areas. Even the forms you practice are not balanced fifty fifty.

Over and beyond that, no one really cares what you do in your own taekwondo. If you want to enter tournaments that punch to the head, go for it. If you do not want to enter tournaments using the wtf rules, then don't. No one will think less of you if you opt out of that. If you do not want kukkiwon certification, same thing, no one will bust on you for that. In fact, no one will think anything no matter what you do with your taekwondo. I know I am not sitting here in judgment of what you do or how you do it, whether you agree with me or not.

 

[dancingalone]

How many "tons" of hand techniques are prohibited in ITF tournaments?

Pax,

Chris

Hmm, looking at this copy of the rules http://tkd-itf.org/pub_web/docs/200...Senior Tournament Rules - April 24th 2006.doc, the prohibitions against specific techniques seem to be minimal. No biting or scratching. No elbows, knees, or forehead attacks (headbutt I assume). That leaves a lot of other hand techniques available although certainly the use of padded gloves along with specified legal targets will make their use unlikely.

 

[puunui]

How many "tons" of hand techniques are prohibited in ITF tournaments?

I don't know about "tons" but what about joint locks and throws? Are those allowed in ITF tournaments? Can I grab someone's leg in an ITF tournament without penalty? Can I spear hand someone in the eyes?

 

[Twin Fist]

you are starting to sound obtuse.

I could care less what boxers do since 1) i am not a boxer and 2) the lack of kicking in boxing is due to the lack of KICKS in boxing

tae kwon do

REAL tae kwon do includes punches

when certain asshats and the orgs they belong to think it is a good idea to take out HALF the art, yeah, thats retarded. And it is no longer Tae KWON do

foot fencing works as well as what i call it, Korean Ballet dancing....

I certainly hope that you hate boxing for its utter lack of anything but.

 

[puunui]

REAL tae kwon do includes punches

when certain asshats and the orgs they belong to think it is a good idea to take out HALF the art, yeah, thats retarded. And it is no longer Tae KWON do

No one is taking out half the art, in spite of your assertions to the contrary. There are lots of punches in both the Kukkiwon and WTF competition (check out the poomsae competition for example).

PS: Chon Ji has no kicks and neither does dan gun. Are you saying those aren't taekwondo forms?

 

[Twin Fist]

in point of fact, no, they are not TKD forms, they are re-arranged japanese forms stolen by korean martial artists who were shotokan stylists and didnt have the education or skill to come up with thier own material

they are just used in TKD, they are not korean anything.

in a Tae Kwon Do competition, advocating that half the art NOT be scored, which is what you are doing is RETARDED and it a betrayal of the art you claim to love.

the decathalon has five events in it

BY NAME

take out one, and you can still call it the decathalon, but it aint

TKD sparring without punches isnt TKD

it is friggin ballet

IMO

No one is taking out half the art, in spite of your assertions to the contrary. There are lots of punches in both the Kukkiwon and WTF competition (check out the poomsae competition for example).

PS: Chon Ji has no kicks and neither does dan gun. Are you saying those aren't taekwondo forms?

 

[RobinTKD]

Hmm, looking at this copy of the rules http://tkd-itf.org/pub_web/docs/200...Senior Tournament Rules - April 24th 2006.doc, the prohibitions against specific techniques seem to be minimal. No biting or scratching. No elbows, knees, or forehead attacks (headbutt I assume). That leaves a lot of other hand techniques available although certainly the use of padded gloves along with specified legal targets will make their use unlikely.

In the UK it all depends what organisation you fight with as they all tend to have their own rules, though there is a blanket ban on palm fists, ridge hands and spear hands, you'll rarely see anything more than a straight or vertical punch or a back fist. And you are right, the regulation gloves prevent any of the techniques I listed being used anyway, that's why we spar using WTF gloves.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How many "tons" of hand techniques are prohibited in ITF tournaments?

Pax,

Chris

Oh, I don't know.

Can you use/score with spear hand?
Can you use/score with the shuto?
Can you use/score with (assuming a similar technique is found in those styles) groin grabs?
Can you use/score with eye gouging?
Can you use/score with an arch hand strike?
Can you use/score with a ridge hand?
Can you use/score with a palm strike?
Can you use/score with a back fist?

While we're at it,

Can you use/score with elbow strikes?
Can you use/score with knee strikes?

I'm pretty sure that the answer is no to all of the above except for maybe the back fist.

 

[chrispillertkd]

That leaves a lot of other hand techniques available although certainly the use of padded gloves along with specified legal targets will make their use unlikely.

When I took the ITF Umpire course last year I specifically asked about this. The presentation focused a lot on forefist punching, indeed it covered primarily front punches with the forefist when talking about punching. Master Muleta specified that any hand technique could be used (forefist punch, back fist, side fist, knife hand, reverse knife hand, long fist, etc.) and punches could come in any variety (front punch, crescent punch, upward punch, upset punch, etc.). The only caveat was that the attacking tool on the hand had to be covered, which basically leaves out the use of the palm, bear hand, or open fist. As for target area, I honestly don't know that that would be much of a factor in the majority of cases. The use of gloves would tend to open up possibilities rather than limit them, I think.

Hand techniques can also be used while flying and when landed they are scored higher than standing techniques. You'll often see ITF fighters go airborn in order to make up a deficit or cement a lead. Front punches are common here, but I've seen backfists score as well.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Oh, I don't know.

Can you use/score with spear hand?

A finger tip thrust? Yes.

Can you use/score with the shuto?

A knife hand? Yes.

Can you use/score with (assuming a similar technique is found in those styles) groin grabs?

If you can grab someone's groin above the belt, I imagine so. No attacking below the belt, but that's a matter of target area not technique.

Can you use/score with eye gouging?

You can't attack the eyes. Again, that's a limitation of target area, not attacking technique. You couldn't attack them with a flat fingertip thrust, for instance, let alone a double fingertip thrust.

Can you use/score with an arch hand strike?

Yes.

Can you use/score with a ridge hand?

A reverse knife-hand? Yes.

Can you use/score with a palm strike?

The portion of the hand used to attack must be covered by the glove so, generally, no since palms are often not covered.

Can you use/score with a back fist?

Yes.

Can you use/score with elbow strikes?
Can you use/score with knee strikes?

Are either of those things considered part of your hand?

I'm pretty sure that the answer is no to all of the above except for maybe the back fist.

As you can see, that's not correct. Certain techniques are more popular than others, certainly, but there are many that are legal to use.

Why the hostility?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

in point of fact, no, they are not TKD forms, they are re-arranged japanese forms stolen by korean martial artists who were shotokan stylists and didnt have the education or skill to come up with thier own material

they are just used in TKD, they are not korean anything.

in a Tae Kwon Do competition, advocating that half the art NOT be scored, which is what you are doing is RETARDED and it a betrayal of the art you claim to love.

the decathalon has five events in it

BY NAME

take out one, and you can still call it the decathalon, but it aint

TKD sparring without punches isnt TKD

it is friggin ballet

IMO

That goes a bit too far in my estimation, particularly the part about the forms.

As for the rest, you don't even do the same type of TKD that he does and are unencumbered by any decisions made by the Kukkiwon or WTF.

I love more hands in fighting. I practice hapkido at a Moo Moo Kwan school. We spar using IHF rules, which for lack of a better way of describing it, looks more like the fighting in Best of the Best, and even incorporates locks, sweeps and take downs. I also practice and teach kendo, where we fence with full contact and bamboo swords that don't bend like those foils, sabers, and epees do.

But that doesn't make one better or the other lesser; I'm happy doing what I'm doing. I would like to start getting back into taekwondo, and if time permits, I definitely will. I still know and practice my pumse.

By the way, I trained in Shotokan many years ago, and while I couldn't perform any of the kata if you paid me Brad Pitt's salary for Moneyball, I do remember enough to say that the Taegeuk Pumse are not reworked Shotokan.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

A finger tip thrust? Yes.




A knife hand? Yes.



If you can grab someone's groin above the belt, I imagine so. No attacking below the belt, but that's a matter of target area not technique.



You can't attack the eyes. Again, that's a limitation of target area, not attacking technique. You couldn't attack them with a flat fingertip thrust, for instance, let alone a double fingertip thrust.



Yes.



A reverse knife-hand? Yes.



The portion of the hand used to attack must be covered by the glove so, generally, no since palms are often not covered.



Yes.



Are either of those things considered part of your hand?



As you can see, that's not correct. Certain techniques are more popular than others, certainly, but there are many that are legal to use.

Why the hostility?

Pax,

Chris

What hostility?? How am I being hostile to you? Did I go after you in some way? Did I patronize you in some way? Did I call you names? Did I put up some insulting graphic?

 

[Twin Fist]

We spar using IHF rules, which for lack of a better way of describing it, looks more like the fighting in Best of the Best, and even incorporates locks, sweeps and take downs.

1) that sparring ruleset sounds awesome, and i liked the fightin in best of the best. and they scored punches

2) the taegeuk are not reworked shotokan, the chong han, which he named, ARE.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

1) that sparring ruleset sounds awesome, and i liked the fightin in best of the best. and they scored punches

The first Best of the Best was fantastic! Rest of the movie was pretty good too.

2) the taegeuk are not reworked shotokan, the chong han, which he named, ARE.

Ah. Well, I have never practiced Chang Hon tul, so I have no comment on their relation to Shotokan kata.

 

[chrispillertkd]

What hostility?? How am I being hostile to you? Did I go after you in some way? Did I patronize you in some way? Did I call you names? Did I put up some insulting graphic?

Yes, in the post of yours where you listed various techniques asking whether they were allowed in ITF sparring you came across as quite patronizing.

Pax,

Chris