The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[Gerry Seymour]

You claimed my analogy wasn't an analogy. I thought maybe you didn't know what it meant as it patently was one thing compared to another. That what the word means.

And no, my analogy said exactly what I meant to say. I realize you don't agree, but as a guy that sells TMA for a living why would you?

Also, reducto ad absurdum isn't a logical fallacy , it's a way of breaking them down. But this isn't that.

You might want to re-examine your bias. I don’t sell TMA for a living. I don’t actually make a dime from teaching these days, and have never made more than a few dollars a month. It’s a hobby.

And many in TMA would argue I’m not very T.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hey look over there is that a diversion?

I assume there was no other source in this case then.

It’s a badger with a gun.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Police effectively tying up criminals on the street with the Beej?

The ability to go and spar a coach from a school to find out if he has the tools. So that they have a much better peer review program.

You can’t use the police episodes. That’s just stories.

 

[drop bear]

You can’t use the police episodes. That’s just stories.

There is footage. Quite a bit of it these days.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wing Chun. My post history has all of the details, I tend to mention it.

So what about wing chun doesn't work for you? Other than the narrow stances that some lineages use, Wing Chun seems to be fairly straight forward without any complicated motions compared to some of the other kun fu systems out their. What was it that you couldn't get to work?

 

[Hanzou]

So what about wing chun doesn't work for you? Other than the narrow stances that some lineages use, Wing Chun seems to be fairly straight forward without any complicated motions compared to some of the other kun fu systems out their. What was it that you couldn't get to work?

It appears that WC wants to be viewed as an effective martial art, but boxing, Muay Thai, and MMA has pretty much prevented that from happening. Now you have this duality of WC exponents either pushing to adapt WC for modern fighting, or creating the ludicrous argument that the rules of competitive fighting neuter WC for “reasons”, and deciding to rigidly stick to traditional methods. I could imagine someone growing tired of that duality (and the lineage crap) and simply jumping ship to something else.

 

[drop bear]

It appears that WC wants to be viewed as an effective martial art, but boxing, Muay Thai, and MMA has pretty much prevented that from happening. Now you have this duality of WC exponents either pushing to adapt WC for modern fighting, or creating the ludicrous argument that the rules of competitive fighting neuter WC for “reasons”, and deciding to rigidly stick to traditional methods. I could imagine someone growing tired of that duality (and the lineage crap) and simply jumping ship to something else.

The big issue you have is there are not that many good enough exponents of kung fu to make it worth most people's while.

So you never really get that super functional grounding you need to be good.

So say you want to learn striking. Your thai fighter will probably have a title. You boxer is golden gloves but your wc has a certificate his instructor gave him and maby bashed some fool at the pub.

If you remove style from that equation and just looked at the best guy. It will almost never be kung fu.

 

[Hanzou]

The big issue you have is there are not that many good enough exponents of kung fu to make it worth most people's while.

So you never really get that super functional grounding you need to be good.

So say you want to learn striking. Your thai fighter will probably have a title. You boxer is golden gloves but your wc has a certificate his instructor gave him and maby bashed some fool at the pub.

If you remove style from that equation and just looked at the best guy. It will almost never be kung fu.

Good points, but you also have this going on;

Which is a complete and utter denial of reality. The best being that strikers can’t generate enough power to end a fight because of the octagon’s floor, despite numerous cases of MMA fighters getting knocked out in stand up. That’s in the first video, and it’s utterly hilarious. If I heard my sifu making that excuse I’d walk out immediately.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It appears that WC wants to be viewed as an effective martial art, but boxing, Muay Thai, and MMA has pretty much prevented that from happening. Now you have this duality of WC exponents either pushing to adapt WC for modern fighting, or creating the ludicrous argument that the rules of competitive fighting neuter WC for “reasons”, and deciding to rigidly stick to traditional methods. I could imagine someone growing tired of that duality (and the lineage crap) and simply jumping ship to something else.

Adapting seems natural to me. If Wing Chun was truly designed for close quarter space, say like a linear alley way, a room, or some other some other space restricted area like a crowded street then I can see where the narrow stance and footwork would come in handy, but when there is space then the footwork needs to be able to adapt. This is true for all fighting systems.

Below is a picture from the 1900 China. If a fight were to kick off in this environment, then you would want to beat your opponent as quickly as possible while taking advantage of limited space, before people started to get out of the way. If you were walking down an alley in this environment, then you would have the same challenges of limited space. Both scenario make getting the fight over as fast as possible would require forward aggressiveness which is common in Wing Chun practice. I can't visualize a scenario where Wing Chun waits to be attacked. The narrow stance almost demands you go after the opponent fully dedicated. The Chi Sao and Bong Sao and trapping movements seems like something that would work when you are jamming punches with forward movement.

If my assumptions are correct then Wing Chun would have no other choice but to adapt when there is open space. With open spaces people are now able to cut angles and literally be on your flank. Now take downs would be able to take advantage of footwork designed for limited space. If someone wanted to fight in a less congested area then their footwork and defense would have to naturally adjust. I know that some Wing Chun schools fail to adapt in this way, but I don't think that's a System issue. I think that's a Purity Issue and not a fight logic issue. Fight logic would dictate that we adapt techniques according to the environment we are in.

 

[drop bear]

Good points, but you also have this going on;

Which is a complete and utter denial of reality. The best being that strikers can’t generate enough power to end a fight because of the octagon’s floor, despite numerous cases of MMA fighters getting knocked out in stand up. That’s in the first video, and it’s utterly hilarious. If I heard my sifu making that excuse I’d walk out immediately.

It is very much like how historical medicine was mis applied and for about the same reasons.

People had all of this anecdotal evidence but not enough information to make the correct conclusions.

In their head it makes sense but add a few more facts and it is shown as pretty silly.

And people do this all the time. If you win a fight wearing your lucky underwear, without testing the veracity of your anecdotal evidence you could firmly believe that lucky underwear works in the street.

Same with martial arts.

Dowsing is a good example.

It doesn't work. But there is a ton of anecdotal evidence that say it does.

 

[Hanzou]

Adapting seems natural to me. If Wing Chun was truly designed for close quarter space, say like a linear alley way, a room, or some other some other space restricted area like a crowded street then I can see where the narrow stance and footwork would come in handy, but when there is space then the footwork needs to be able to adapt. This is true for all fighting systems.

Below is a picture from the 1900 China. If a fight were to kick off in this environment, then you would want to beat your opponent as quickly as possible while taking advantage of limited space, before people started to get out of the way. If you were walking down an alley in this environment, then you would have the same challenges of limited space. Both scenario make getting the fight over as fast as possible would require forward aggressiveness which is common in Wing Chun practice. I can't visualize a scenario where Wing Chun waits to be attacked. The narrow stance almost demands you go after the opponent fully dedicated. The Chi Sao and Bong Sao and trapping movements seems like something that would work when you are jamming punches with forward movement.

If my assumptions are correct then Wing Chun would have no other choice but to adapt when there is open space. With open spaces people are now able to cut angles and literally be on your flank. Now take downs would be able to take advantage of footwork designed for limited space. If someone wanted to fight in a less congested area then their footwork and defense would have to naturally adjust. I know that some Wing Chun schools fail to adapt in this way, but I don't think that's a System issue. I think that's a Purity Issue and not a fight logic issue. Fight logic would dictate that we adapt techniques according to the environment we are in.

Fight logic would also dictate if there's a massive hole in what you're doing, you need to fill the hole or your ship is going to sink.

There appears to be some very large holes in the Wing Chun system. I think the problem is that if you fill those holes, will you still have Wing Chun or will you lose it completely? I have seen attempts to fill those holes with WC solutions, and they just dont work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There appears to be some very large holes in the Wing Chun system.

What do you think those holes may be?

 

[drop bear]

What do you think those holes may be?

We can go back to sport evidence and suggest their striking doesn't really compare well.

They use the argument that they are denied vital striking. But they don't have evidence they can out vital strike anyone.

We can see this evidence on video.

Otherwise lack of head movement, fighting at only one range, constantly taking one hand away blocking and punching, not physically conditioning for the sort of fight they engage in.

There is a list.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

constantly taking one hand away blocking and punching,

IMO, the lacking of clinch training can be an issue.

 

[Martial D]

What do you think those holes may be?

I wouldn't say there are holes in wing Chun(as it pertains to reality) so much as you can use it to FILL one or two holes(such as, sensitivity while handfighting/pommelingfor position in the clinch)

There is really nothing else it does that you can't get a way better version of elsewhere.

Such is the case with everything that isn't already in MMA. MMA is what it is and has become what it has become through absorbing everything that works from all sources. The chances are if it's not already there it's because it's garbage.

 

[Martial D]

I'm just gonna leave this here

 

[JowGaWolf]

Such is the case with everything that isn't already in MMA. MMA is what it is and has become what it has become through absorbing everything that works from all sources.

To an certain extent. For the most part the fighters in MMA are going to pick the technique that works best for them. Some of the fighters have the flexibility and ability to kick high so they do do it. Others do not have that skill set to kick high, so they don't do it. The oblique kick is another good example, how many people in MMA actually use it in comparison to other stuff that is widely used.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that just because it's not in MMA it's not effective. How long was MMA around before we started seeing the effective use of the Oblique kick? Like alot of stuff found in MMA, that's a TMA technique that has been around longer than MMA has existed. But it took a long time before we saw it being used.

 

[drop bear]

To an certain extent. For the most part the fighters in MMA are going to pick the technique that works best for them. Some of the fighters have the flexibility and ability to kick high so they do do it. Others do not have that skill set to kick high, so they don't do it. The oblique kick is another good example, how many people in MMA actually use it in comparison to other stuff that is widely used.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that just because it's not in MMA it's not effective. How long was MMA around before we started seeing the effective use of the Oblique kick? Like alot of stuff found in MMA, that's a TMA technique that has been around longer than MMA has existed. But it took a long time before we saw it being used.

It is a muay thai technique.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How long was MMA around

Before the term MMA was known, Sanda was popular in Taiwan during the 80th. For those who wanted to compete Sanda, they had to cross train either Judo, or SC.

Here is a clip to show that it's a big disadvantage for anybody who doesn't know the throwing art.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It is a muay thai technique.

What is a muay thai technique?