The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Alan Smithee, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    More to do with the quality of your sparring partners.
     
  2. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    I realize you think that. I used to believe a lot of stuff too before I had it smacked out of me by trained fighters.

    I guess you won't know unless you do it.
     
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  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    It still wouldn't change my thoughts of that. My fight theories ha nothing to do with sparring partners. I focus on mechanics. One hand goes out, the other hand returns. On hand returns the other one goes out. This guy isn't my sparring partner but he's doing exactly what I described in my theory.


    This guy must suck too because he's doing the same thing I'm talking about. Play it in slow motion One hand goes back the other hand goes forward. Like a nice little pulley system.What around that 50% mark.


    I haven't sparred with either one of these people and yet, my theory fits nicely with what is going on. These guys are doing this regardless of if I'm sparring or not. So how does me sparring with "Quality sparring partners" affect how they are throwing punches? or the mechanics of punching.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
  4. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. In the initial post I made that drew this reply, I was talking about(at least in the part you quoted) hand trapping

    You made one of your usual comments that set off my newbie alarm which is why I suggested trying MMA for some context.
     
  5. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    I should probably clarify. With this I did not mean to imply you are a newbie to martial arts. I am convinced this is not the case.

    You know when you have done something a lot, and you can just recognise others that have done likewise by small comments and observations they might make that just jive with your experience in an intimate and authentic way? The opposite is also true.

    You ever wonder why fighting, be it in a ring or otherwise, mostly looks very similar, regardless if it's a trained Kung Fu guy or an untrained guy or a sport fighter?

    There are a limited number of high percentage strikes, and take downs, but no way to know which ones they are until you mix it up.

    All that separates the trained sport fighters(ie the ones with the mat/ring time) from the rest are the quality with which they execute them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2019
  6. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Because you are too quick to dismiss me without thinking about what I'm saying or talking about. So I end up having to explain stuff that really shouldn't be difficult to graps.

    Here Is my quote.

    It wouldn't change anything. These are the same thing I use to coach my brother who is an amateur Muay Tai and MMA fighter.
    I showed 2 random videos of people punching and it still lined up with my basic punching theory. And that was to address your comment below.

    your comment: "I realize you think that. I used to believe a lot of stuff too before I had it smacked out of me by trained fighters."

    I then I stated what should be clear, but because it wasn't I posted 2 videos that didn't have anything to do with MMA or TMA, which those videos addresses your statement
    "This type of stuff doesn't have an thing to do with TMA or MMA."

    "It's my understanding of the mechanics of punching. If I don't understand this, then it would mpossible for me to be successful with my crazy Jow Ga techniques. I stated how this understanding helps me in what I do." This is what helps me be successful with what I do, so why would I stop doing what works for me?

    Like I've said plenty of times. I spar to learn, so while people like you are so focused on trying to wind or get the better shot in. I'm absorbing all sorts of information as I'm seeking to understand what's coming at me, the limitations of it, the openings. etc. I analyze the crap out things while I spar. So when the time comes for me to actually use it, I don't have to think much about it,

    Here's a conversation that I had with my brother after giving him some tips about kicking. I watched one of his fights, analyzed it, and saw a few things that would be easy for him to pick up and help him to be better with his kicks. We spent 3 hours training outside with 1 of the hours training in the dark with, only a light that threw shadows everywhere. His response is in the white. Did we train TMA that night? Nope. Did we train MMA that night? nope. We spent 3 hours going over the mechanics of lead jab, the weaknesses, how to trigger it and how to understand when to throw the kick or not. The same basic punching theory that I described here is the same one he spent an almost 2 hours trying to "spar to learn" and understand. He picked it up.. he finally understood. By that 3rd hour his timing got better as he understood what to look for.

    Not that his comments didn't say "ahh that stuff doesn't work" He listened to what I saying, tried it against resistance, Not just against me, but against his girlfriend who fights in Muay Thai matches. That first hour he screwed up, made lots of mistakes, couldn't land the kick. that second have of that training session. He had enough understanding to be able to land that front kick at will, if he decides to keep training it.

    . upload_2019-12-3_20-58-23.png

    Photos from the training session that went into the night.
    upload_2019-12-3_21-17-13.png


    You guys should be sick and tired of me backing up what I say. I have no reason to lie or hype myself up on Martial Talk. There's no benefit in me doing such a thing. Spend less time trying to tell me what doesn't work and more time giving it some thought. Heck, try it out. Drop bear did and it didn't kill him.


    And as far a WC and hand trapping goes the closer you get to your opponent the easier it is to do when you are trying to trap punching at the end of the punch. Now how do you get close enough. I have no idea. 1. I don't do WC. 2, what makes it easy for me to get close may not make it easy for someone else to get close. That'll just be a skill set that you'll have to learn..

    Just because WC doesn't work for you doesn't mean that what everyone else does is invalid.
     
  7. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I understand this but do't focus on that because at this very point what you are telling yourself that the only people you can beat are the ones you spar with. Boxers fight against other boxers who they never been in the wring with and they win. You can do the same if you can recognize the mechanics of a jab and body movement.

    For the most part jabs travel that same general mechanical line using similar body mechanics. If any thing, this is why "TMA chinese super masters " fail. They have never seen the mechanics of a Jab so when they get in the ring they look lost as they struggle to deal with a jab. If you get jabbed at by 10 different people then you already have a good understanding of what a jab is, how it moves, the distance of a jab. You can recognize good ones and bad ones. You may be like me where Jabs at certain angles give me trouble. Or you may be better than me with jab. But regardless of if you spar against me or not. If you spar to learn what's really going on with a jab when your opponent's use it then you it's going to be very similar against other fighters. Only difference is arm reach , speed, and power.

    So give yourself more credit in your ability. One day spar to learn, just focus on what's going on and what you can pick up about your opponent while you spare. Just be sure to tell your sparring partner not to hit you hard because you're going to get hit a lot while sparring to learn, but you'll learn stuff that will blow your mind away and surprise you. Then when it comes to actually fighting in competition, your going to do better than what you think.

    Also stop comparing the quality of what you do to that of a professional fighter. If you aren't planning on being a professional fighter with a winning record then stop making that your "acceptable level of performance.".

    I'm not here to blow magic kung fu dust everywhere. As a matter of fact. I ALWAYS tell people that the more you learn about fighting the less it becomes about fighting. Also don't take what I say as being 100% strict it works this way only. Because that's not realistic. Even I don't think that and that should never be the automatic assumption about what I say or what anyone else says.. Look at it as a starting point to go any direction you want to. Maybe for you the hands don't pass each other at 50%. Maybe for you the punches extend 100% and return to guard at 50%. There are so many variety of ways of how to look at punches and how to take advantage of it.


    Again you are already defeating yourself. You want to get higher percentage of strikes and take downs" then learn how to trigger certain movements and reactions in people. Trick them, bait them, force them, lead them, or do whatever gets them to be in that position where your strike or take down will be more successful.

    Stop focusing on things like "no way to know which ones" and start focusing on. "if I do this, most people react this way" and use that to set them up. Don't let your opponent control the fight and what type of game it's going to be. Figure out a way to move things into your favor. Figure it out, For me personal, I focus first on learning how to t do a technique, then I spend time trying to figure out when and what type of fighters this technique works best against based on my ability. If I come across someone different then I know that I have to use something else.

    I think that's part of it, but that quality comes from training like a beast all the time. I wouldn't step foot in an MMA ring unless my training intensity is at least equal of MMA fighters in general. If I'm going to use a big Jow Ga punch the I better train that punch like a beast against a wide variety of strikes in grappling attempts. I better train that technique as if my life and well being depends on it. My 5 day a week training that I did at my old school was no where near what it needed to be. During that time I was actually starting to train to fight competitively and had begun training against competitive Sanda students who were looking to make it on a national team. Life had other plans and I had to stop my training when my wife was diagnosed with cancer.

    If this is the extent of the training that is done in any system, then yeah don't fight against people who train harder than this.


    My first time sparring againt competitive sanda students made it clear just how bad and unprepared my cardio was. Forget punching kicking and throwing people to the ground. My cardio was crap. But I cleaned it up trained harder and it paid off.
     
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  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I would love to spar against you and drop bear, not because I have anything to prove but because it'll be nice to show you that things aren't as bleak as it seems, and things are more practical with me. The closest I would every get to this is for me to prank you guys. Walk in with a yellow bamboo t-shirt, play the role and then then be the total opposite of this crazy stuff. lol. Other than for me it's body mechanics and do I have the speed and power to pull of whatever it is against whoever.

    If the person is faster the I need to train to be faster or find a way be the speed with something else, which is pretty much the same choices most people have regardless of what they do. If i can't find a working solution then I guess losing is an option (in terms of competition).
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    This post is closer to my own view. When I speak of "TMA", I'm typically referring to styles/schools that - for whatever reason - prefer to keep some of the older methods and rituals. So, if it's a JMA or CMA and there's moderately formal bowing, I'm likely to view it as a TMA. Kyokushin would be a good example of there being a lot of TMA aspects (still using kata, etc.), with lots of competition. Most Judo schools are still moderately traditional, too.
     
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  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Asking out of ignorance of WC (and semi-ignorance of boxing) - what's the difference between the way boxing traps and how WC approaches it?
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed. It's an odd omission I see, even among schools that tend to focus on round attacks. They look at the big looping round attack, but ignore the tighter and still powerful hooks.
     
  12. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Foot movement mostly. Lomenchenko pulls that off because he is super good at keeping opponents on his centerline while staying off of theirs. If you are on opponents centerline, trapping hands doesn't work.
     
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  13. O'Malley

    O'Malley Green Belt

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    Sorry for derailing the side-thread.

    Out of curiosity, which joint locks did you try?

    Aikido is primarily trained in the form of kata ("forms" or drills). Uke (the "receiver", which often means the one who attacks and then gets "aikidone") must attack sincerely within the framework of the kata. This means that, if the kata requires that uke grab his partner, uke must grab with the intention of blocking tori's wrist (or pulling or pushing him depending on what is being taught). Uke must also try to maintain structure, strength and balance as much as possible.

    This provides his partner (tori) with resistance against which he must perform the kata. If tori does not develop the proper technique and conditioning, he will fail against this resistance. Conversely, if tori manages to perform the kata under those conditions, it means that his aikido is good enough to overcome this resistance.

    However, an important caveat is that uke's attack must be sincere: it needs to provide the necessary resistance but still needs to stay within the limits of the kata, it's not sparring: if the kata requires me to just do a grab, I will grab strongly but I will not start yanking in every direction or headbutting my partner: that would not be "resisting the technique", it would be a form of sparring.

    With this in mind, if you expect a particular technique to be applied to you when you are sparring and know that it's coming, it's on you for not understanding that it's a drill. On the other hand, if you resisted by simply grabbing/striking hard, with good form and maintaining structure and balance, and your instructor was not able to overcome that sincere resistance, quite frankly I would not want to train under him: good aikido takes your balance and brings you down without you having to compromise your own balance, structure or the strength of your attack.

    As regards your second question, here's a quick roadmap for aikido progression:

    Beginner - knows the motions
    Intermediate - manages to overcome uke's resistance in static kata, may struggle against certain people (particularly strong/tall/short/flexible/whatever ukes)
    Advanced - smoothly overcomes uke's resistance in static kata, can apply the technique in dynamic kata (which requires greater sense of timing, flow and distance)
    Very advanced - smoothly overcomes resistance in both static and dynamic kata, can smoothly apply techniques in freestyle

    Some styles do not train with resistance and require uke to stop maintaining his own structure (i.e. grab without impeding tori's movement) or "choose" to do something in the middle of the technique for it to work. This stems from incorrect technique. For example, I was taught by an Aikikai 5th dan that, when tori brings me down during the following technique, I should try my best to stand back up (and then tori throws me the other way):



    As a beginner, I said "why should I stand up so you can clothesline me?", the teacher replied "because that's the most natural thing to do". For me, now as back then, the natural thing to do when I am brought down and forward is either to fall down or keep moving forward, not try to stand up while running in circles around tori. I was told that it was because I should think like a warrior and, since the other options were dangerous (I was never shown why), in the heat of the battle my first reaction should be to straighten up (so that I can be thrown).

    When I entered an Iwama aikido school, I learnt that, with proper technique, uke never "needs to straighten up" or even gets a chance to walk away as he is never brought "down and forward": tori enters and take uke's balance to the rear/outside, takes control of his spine and throws him.



    I hope this helps.
     
  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Apart from lomenchenco being just better.

    Boxing doesn't trap a hundred percent of the striking which you can't do.

    I have mentioned this. So without even knowing a strike is coming footwork automatically takes care of some of it.

    Then head movement takes care of some of it.

    Then your guard takes care of some of it.

    Then you trap the much smaller amount of punches that are left.

    Wing chun stands directly in front of you directly in range with their chin up and their hands away from their face and basically say come at me punches.

    And then don't even condition themselves for the sort of super hard cardio, iron chin style of fight that becomes.

    Now you can get away with these moves if the other guy is a bit crap. If the punches are slow and getting hit holds no danger. But ramp that up and you just get picked off.
     
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  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You would then fall on all fours and get soccer kicked in the face.

     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  16. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    It's mostly the training methods that strike me as the relevant difference. But the ceremony is also a noteable distinction.
     
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  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I thought WC was supposed to trap off their opponent's centerline
     
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Trap from the center line or trap avoiding the center line?
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Have to disagree with you on this.

    Which strategy is better?

    1. My hands are away from my face and close to your face.
    2. My hands are close to my face and away from your face.

    IMO, 1 > 2.

    If My hands are close to

    - your face, I won't give you enough space to generate your punching speed and power. If you want to hit my face, your hands have to pass through my hands before your hand can reach to my face.
    - my face, I pretty much tell you that I am just your punching dummy and you can punch me any way that you prefer.

    This is why I don't like the boxing guard. It's too conservative. If I let your arm to swing at me freely, it will be my fault to start with.

    The arm wrapping (or double over hooks) is the best strategy to deal with a boxer's punch. When there is a problem (such as your opponent hands can punch on your head), there is always a simple solution (such as to disable his free arms ASAP).



    [​IMG]


    There is a good reason that spear is superior than the sword. When a spear head is 2 feet away from your face, your sword will have to deal with the spear first. You have to worry about that spear can stab into your chest before your sword can cut your opponent's head off.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
  20. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I thought that little twist that they do was to get off center-line so they don't get smashed in the face. So with that assumption I thought the trapping was done by avoiding your opponent's center-line. When I trap I don't like to trap head on. I prefer taking some kind of angle which reduces the chance that I'll get smashed in the face for standing directly in front of my sparring partner. For me taking that angle isn't so much about avoiding the first punch as it is to make it difficult for my opponent to throw the second punch. So if you punch with a right jab, then I want to move to the left of your jab. That way your right punching arm is in between your left punch and my face. By me being off my opponent's center line, I will have the option to strike because I'm facing my opponent, but my opponent has to reposition so he can use his left arm.

    I'm not sure if that painted a clear picture., but anyway.. that's what I thought that that twist was for., to move the body off the opponents center line. Which would make it easier to trap than standing in front eating a 1 - 2 jab combo. or a hook.123
     

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