The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Alan Smithee, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    Is a myth 99% of the time. The reality is that you can't apply the joint lock whatsoever on a person of similar build and strength if the person resists. You just get stuck. Believe me, I have challenged people on it, including instructors giving out the lecture, and others have too. They can't apply it to me and I can't apply it to them. Simple as that.

    So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.

    With that in mind, how do you know where your level of Aikido is if it's never tested? What are the criterias? Is it something to do with center of gravity and balance, flow? I have no idea since it's a cooperation between individuals.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  2. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    -argues that aikido doesn't work unless you cooperate

    - concludes that you don't have to cooperate for aikido to work.


    ?? lol..?
     
  3. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    What?:) Where did I do that?
     
  4. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    You might want to read your own post for that answer.
     
  5. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    I think you should reread your own instead.. It makes very little sense.
     
  6. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    I did not write anywhere that Aikido works without cooperation between individuals of similar strength.

    A police officer vs a junkie, it obviously work. Junkies aren't exactly known for their athletic prowess and keeping in shape.

    A super heavyweight vs a middleweight, might work on them too. Again, if the discrepancy is large it has a chance of working. But then again, everything does.
     
  7. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    What I mean was: where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate IN ORDER TO not get your wrist broken.

    The headliner of the thread in case you missed. I didn't know I had to repeat it.
     
  8. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    >>So where does this notion stem from that you have to cooperate? It's just not true.

    If you meant something other than what you wrote you probably should have wrote what you meant.

    As for your premise, I'm not sure anyone is naive enough to believe aikido is more than a cooperative dance anymore, unless they prefer to keep their head in the sand or are making a living from it.
     
  9. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    It is stated in the topic of the thread.

    Presumably a lot of aikidokas still do? And it does work, just not on the people they think.
     
  10. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    From here Opinions on Lenny Sly's Aikido Combative concepts?

     
  11. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    I was taught a very comprehensive version of TKD and we worked quite a lot on joint locks. When I was a LEO, another officer and good friend started working out. He was a mountain of a man with huge forearms. There was zero change that ANYONE was going to get wrist lock on him if he was expecting it. As a training tool I would demonstrate this point and then how the elements of surprise and distraction have to be incorporated.
    In reality, I feel there are No techniques that truly work alone. They all incorporate speed, time, distraction, etc...

    I am not certain this answers your question since your post mentions breaking the wrist. If you are asking if your wrist breaking motion is strong enough there are stands made to hold resistive objects to test grip/twist strength.
     
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  12. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    Even trying distracting tactics, it usually doesn't work. My assistant instructor did all kinds of crazy things trying to get the joint lock in.

    I'm surprised it ever caught on.. Like you mention, Karate and TKD do have these things as well in smaller portion of the curriculum labelled "Self defence".
     
  13. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    theirs a slight difference between what your saying in the title, which is just wrist locks and the body of the text, which is all joint locks,

    but yes joint locks are hard to do against a strong opponent that is expecting a joint lock to be attempted, some what easier if they lunge at you and you catch them by surprise.

    by the point you reach the stage of lock as shown in aikido demonstrations then you probably do have to give up ( the hard part is getting to that stage}, im not sure about the wrist being broken, but your in a very disadvantaged position, if you have a good strength advantage you may be able to untangle yourself.

    arm bars are a different kettle of fish, you could easily end up with damage to the elbow
     
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  14. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    You mean that if you are half way to completing the technique? I don't know about that but it really isn't relevant since there is no evidence to suggest you will get half way.
     
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  15. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    well no thats really what i just said, but its the same for every technique, they all fail if your opponent is a physical match and expecting what ever you are going to do, what your pointing out as a defect of aikido is just a defect in all arts

    its very difficult to punch someone who is expecting a punch
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  16. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    It is not a defect of all martial arts. A person of the same build in many other martial arts can reasonably apply a successful technique to someone of the same build.
     
  17. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Please at least quote my full point, which is what you are asking.

    As to your assumption, I don't buy it. There are somethings that come to mind about joint locks, like a wrist lock, and "real world" application. First, is when people tell you to apply something specific and you know what they are going to do and then can resist it. Yep, no problem! You are quite right that if you can't out muscle them it isn't going to work when you know exactly what is coming and you have the chance to resist it. Second, are those that "chase" after joint locks without a proper setup or opportunity. This is lock throwing out a block hoping that the other guy might punch at the same time so you can block his punch. Joint locks are counters to situations that present themselves, if the situation doesn't happen, you shouldn't be putting a square peg in a round hole. Third, ANY actual street confrontation will be based on the skill of the participants. You will have your basic "go to" moves that are high percentage moves and you will (or should) have things that will work for you when you are a lot more skilled than your attacker that are options.

    Now, back to the first point that if you are resisting they don't work. Ueshiba even said that you should be striking (atemi) before applying any joint lock. How many actually practice this? I'm sure when you wanted to disprove the wrist locks, your partner didn't punch or kick you to loosen you up and take your mind of the joint lock. I do agree that many train things with only compliance and don't add resistance to their drilling so they don't raise their skill level up to use things. I have trained in dojos that it didn't matter how sloppy the technique was, the other person would just comply like it was an effective technique. I have also trained at places, that even during "cooperative training" if you didn't have everything done correctly, they wouldn't just allow you to apply the technique. You HAD to have your setup, off balancing, timing etc. all correct before you even got to the joint lock portion of things.

    BUT, back to my initial premise. IF the wrist lock is done correctly and fully applied and carried out, the COUNTER to that is the roll. Watch BJJ players and you will see them doing rolls on the ground to counter the pressure being applied on certain locks/submissions. Same concept The roll is a trained response to counter and put you back into a position that you can defend. Nowhere do I say you HAVE to roll or your wrist will be broke, but if you don't release the pressure in some manner, you will be injured, which is why people "throw" (roll).
     
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  18. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    no not if they are a physical match and expecting what ever you are going to do, perhaps you could give a few examples of the techniques you thinking of, that always work ?
     
  19. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    joint locking in Chinese martial arts is called Qinna. I have trained Qinna with a few people. including a little with Yang Jwing Ming, but the absolute best person at Qinna was my Yang Taijiquan Shifu, who is now 80 years old. I can feel when people go for joint locks and I can counter many of them, I could not counter Dr Yang. I felt it coming, but I could not stop him. I cannot feel it when my taiji shifu applies it, never know it is coming, I am just locked. I once asked him how he does this, his response was "You lock yourself". He is never trying to force a lock, he is never trying to trick you into a lock, he is never fighting to get the lock. He is simply waiting for the time when whatever joint he locks, is in the proper position to easily lock. If it is never there, he will not lock it. Of course, he has been training well over 50 years. But his locks, never fail, and are never forced.
     
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  20. Alan Smithee

    Alan Smithee Blue Belt

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    Funny since that is not how it's practiced. The defender never punches or kicks in Aikido, only the attacker. They don't even strike theoretically as the defender in Aikido.
     

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