The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Alan Smithee, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You would think you would see it in chi sou



    The term is the 12o clock. And it is where you and him are directly in front of each other.

    Lomenchenco is almost always at 1 or 11.

     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
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  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    @drop bear I don't like this twisting that he does at 2:56 because he stays on my center-line for jabs and crosses. His feet move but his head and body stays in the same place. I've seen other WC practitioners do the same technique but, they actually move off the center line, which make more sense to me, then staying in one place.

    [
    This is how I think of Chi Sau and it's probably because I took Tai Chi. The concept of sticking with and controlling the opponent's hand and arms. And sensing what your opponent may do based on how he's trying to position his hands. Or it can be used to sense opening of attack.

    This is just me and my thinking. If I wanted to train this technique, I would find grappler because that would give me more opportunity to use Chi Sou. I wouldn't try this with a striker unless it was from a clinch, meaning my opponent will try to apply a clinch and I would try to keep it from happening. Chi Sou to me is like "controlling hand" and the only real way to use it to have contact and "stickiness" when is really difficult to near impossible to do hat the end of sometimes punch. If were to try it against a puncher I would have to first figure out how to get within clinch range and then how to keep my opponent there. That's just my thinking based on the numerous punches I've taken in the past.
     
  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Another thing about Chi Sou. If I had to practice it with another WC student, then all of that practice would be training of concept. I would actually have to Practice against a non-WC student in order to practice the Application of it. A non WC student isn't going to be tempted to get into formal Wing Chun stances and Chi Sou positioning. Again this just my personal thoughts on this, because that how I train my Jow Ga. Jow Ga vs Jow Ga = concept training. Jow Ga vs something else = application training.

    This is what I enjoyed about my old sparring partners. They rarely used Jow Ga techniques. They preferred boxing and haymakers. So as long as they were doing that I was getting good application training.
     
  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If a WC guy uses sticky hand against a SC guy, the process will be different. The "separate hands" will be used to separate the WC guy's arms away from his head. A clinch will be then established.

    Which approach is better? The answer may depend on whether you can truly knock your opponent down in the sticky hand range or not.
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks. That's good food for thought. I need to look at how I'm trapping (and how I teach it) to see if I'm focusing enough on that point.
     
  6. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Ya.

    It might be different in other arts but with the WC I learned the objective was always to pin one arm with the other arm. This is substantially easier to do if he is angled off you.
     
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  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When you pin your opponent's arm,. do you pin on his forearm. elbow joint, or upper arm? Also do you pin with your tiger mouth (space between thumb and index finger) facing toward yourself, or facing toward your opponent?
     
  8. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    We used the palm side of the outside of the hand (knife edge). We kept the thumbs tucked . In fact, that was true of all hand techniques. Even our lop sau was a finger/palm grab.

    The ideal trap in that WC was on the elbow, because it prevents rotating the arm free on the elbow axis.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The reason that I ask you how to pin your opponent's forearm against his back arm, because when you do that, if you can pull your opponent's right arm to your right (his left), you can scoop his right leg or outer hook his left leg and take him down. The opportunity is there.

    IMO, to pin your opponent's leading arm against his back arm is a very important strategy in CMA. At that moment, your opponent has no free arms and you still have 1 free arm. You can punch your opponent to death if you want to.

    Not sure if Aikido uses this strategy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2019
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I've never seen that arm pinning in Aikido (though I've incorporated it a bit). Aikido as I've seen it depends more in hiding behind the arm ("outside" the front arm) with forced weight shifts to slow a counter-pivot, for the same purpose.
     
  11. Cynik75

    Cynik75 Yellow Belt

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    Just for information: two day ago I tapped out standing wristlock. The perpetrator was an ukrainian wrestler.
     
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