The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[drop bear]

that has an element of truth, but evidence through first hand testimony is the bed rock of the criminal justice system, so you cant just dismiss it unless you can suggest a more reliable form of available evidence, to which both ourselves and the criminal justice system could benefit

even in this day and age the vast majority of things don't happen on camera, particularly violent assaults where criminals with even a modicum of sense avoid cameras

Which is why I have such a low opinion of self defence martial arts.

People are working of such a terrible source matter that the standard is that people will lie.

Exactly like court by the way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A few years back a movement was starting against the "then) "new" judo competition rules. Those new rules were rumored to be initiated int he international governing bodies because so many of the traditional competition powerhouse nations (i.e. Japan) were losing to all these wrestlers & BJJ people working single-leg nd double-leg takedowns, leg picks, etc. All of those were already "in" judo (right there in the syllabus, if you go looking) but people really didn't use them because the traditional starting position (i.e. standard kumikata grip position) rendered it a bit weird, uncomfortable &/or awkward to attack that way.

Anyway, brief digression over, I forget which US organization was rebelling against the new rules, which had the obvious and glaring removal of techniques... and stuck them right back in. AAU, maybe? Anyway, they changed up scoring as well, going to a point system which promoted more action for spectators, and less liklihood that a match would just be... over. It was interesting. But... the big associations did something about rank and testings etc., and I stopped hearing about it here in Houston.

How did you guys get on this topic, anyway? I read page 1, then skipped to page 24 and it's completely different topic shift. Interesting to me how that happens.

I don't even remember how we got here.

That's the kind of thing that drives me nuts about associations (and it's by no means unique to Judo). Too often, they simply decide their approach is the only good approach and quash others, rather than letting others exist (since if theirs was actually best, it would likely not be adversely affected).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

While you cannot make assumptions on where and how you can get attacked, there are always restrictions and opportunities that you can manage by how you position yourself in that environment. How you position yourself in a given environment will either increase, decrease, or totally eliminate the chances of certain attacks occurring. This is what you manage. The environment itself also helps determine the possibility of attack.

Am I more likely to get in a fist fight at a museum or at a bar? I'm I more likely to be ambushed in a mall or in the parking lot.

I understand what you mean by learning certain things from certain drills, I just don't think that the one in that video fall under that and it was definitely not presented as drill in which you learn something else.

I agree that how it was used in the video wasn't a drill. That was my point a few posts back - it looks like they took some potentially useful drills and just ran them in chaos mode.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But it isn't. What it is is an analogy.

I have no way of differentiating wishful thinking/intentional bs/willful exaggerating from someone's actual experience barring external verification/evidence.

My claim to have been to Mars, despite evidence to the contrary, is epistemologically equal to someone's claim that they win fights with TMA training and methods(ie kata/gi cooperative choreography) despite evidence that rarely to never happens.

Logic 101

It's not an analogy, because the two aren't analogous. You've taken one concept (someone being able to perform pretty much any of a range of techniques in the wild) and compared it with another concept (someone being able to take a trip to Mars) that has no real equivalency. Hence ad absurdum.

If you'd used "I went to Atlanta", that would be analogous.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which is why I have such a low opinion of self defence martial arts.

People are working of such a terrible source matter that the standard is that people will lie.

Exactly like court by the way.

You have a low opinion of them because you have a stereotyped view of them and group them all into that stereotype. You've displayed that particular cognitive bias over and over, even making claims about how I teach and train without any knowledge.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When you develop a culture of evidence through stories. You encourage people to talk themselves up.

Police are as susceptible as anyone else for this.

You once again go for the binary situation. It's not binary. Hearing first-hand reports supplements other sources. And you're assuming some sort of culture set-up that I'm not sure exists.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Aside from the hundreds of videos of guys trying their TMA against actual fighters and getting quickly pummeled, I guess.

What about the TMA guys who've fought in MMA? I mean, there were a fair few in the early years, and they seemed to have some effective material. There are fewer now, as there has been more blending of arts and more specialization of training to the context.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What about the TMA guys who've fought in MMA? I mean, there were a fair few in the early years, and they seemed to have some effective material. There are fewer now, as there has been more blending of arts and more specialization of training to the context.

There may be fewer TMA ONLY fighters there but TMA techniques are used all the time.

Backfist, spinning backfists, elbow strikes, round house, spinning back kicks, front heel kicks, upper cuts, hooks, big wheel punches like what is seen in Hung ga, Choy li Fut, Jow Ga, Low leg kicks, the oblique kick, axe kicks, spinning round house kicks, sweeps, spinning elbows, side kicks, flying knees, and front snap kicks are all found in TMA and seen in MMA. If we were to take away all TMA techniques out of MMA how much would be left to fight with?

If that video isn't evidence, then I begin to wonder what people consider TMA and what they visualize as TMA. Are they expecting something like Movie Martial arts where the guy easily takes out a bunch of people with a TMA system? Is this what they are expecting to see in an MMA fight? If so then there is confusion between movie fighting with TMA and real fighting with TMA.

 

[Randy Pio]

Are they expecting something like Movie Martial arts where the guy easily takes out a bunch of people with a TMA system? Is this what they are expecting to see in an MMA fight?

Yes, 100%. But on both sides- new practitioners expect the ability to do this and spectators expect to see it.

-RP

 

[drop bear]

You once again go for the binary situation. It's not binary. Hearing first-hand reports supplements other sources. And you're assuming some sort of culture set-up that I'm not sure exists.

What other source have we been shown in this instance?

 

[drop bear]

You have a low opinion of them because you have a stereotyped view of them and group them all into that stereotype. You've displayed that particular cognitive bias over and over, even making claims about how I teach and train without any knowledge.

Not at all. Just the closer I looked the more inconsistencies I found.

You could refute any claim I make with evidence at any time.

I am confused why you don't. It just ads weight to any claim I make.

 

[Martial D]

It's not an analogy, because the two aren't analogous. You've taken one concept (someone being able to perform pretty much any of a range of techniques in the wild) and compared it with another concept (someone being able to take a trip to Mars) that has no real equivalency. Hence ad absurdum.

If you'd used "I went to Atlanta", that would be analogous.

a·nal·o·gy

/əˈnaləjē/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

You're welcome.

 

[Martial D]

What about the TMA guys who've fought in MMA? I mean, there were a fair few in the early years, and they seemed to have some effective material. There are fewer now, as there has been more blending of arts and more specialization of training to the context.

Yes, and some of those early fights were hilarious flail fests, no different from guys that were completely untrained(and in fact, some untrained guys dominated TMA guys..tank Abbot comes to mind) and every single one of them got pwned by BJJ, just BJJ, that isn't even good by today's standards.

And what happened then? Competition pushed the game forward. The lack of being tied to outdated methods and training that never worked as intended to begin with didn't hold it back the way it holds TMA back. Their training became realistic.

While modern martial arts and artists continue to be refined and improved every day, though whatever is shown to work, TMA guys continue to do the same junk they've been at since the 1950s or longer, under a culture of change=bad tradition=good

And now the divide between this and that is so wide that it's barely even the same subject anymore.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, and some of those early fights were hilarious flail fests, no different from guys that were completely untrained(and in fact, some untrained guys dominated TMA guys..tank Abbot comes to mind) and every single one of them got pwned by BJJ, just BJJ, that isn't even good by today's standards.

And what happened then? Competition pushed the game forward. The lack of being tied to outdated methods and training that never worked as intended to begin with didn't hold it back the way it holds TMA back. Their training became realistic.

While modern martial arts and artists continue to be refined and improved every day, though whatever is shown to work, TMA guys continue to do the same junk they've been at since the 1950s or longer, under a culture of change=bad tradition=good

And now the divide between this and that is so wide that it's barely even the same subject anymore.

I'm forced to agree with this overall assessment. The interesting thing is that fighters who specialize in Bjj and were elite level in sport Bjj are coming back into vogue now and have very impressive MMA records. Kron Gracie, Mckenzie Dern, Ryan Hall, and Garry Tonon just to name a few. That's something that really shouldn't be possible at this stage in MMA's evolution, but it's happening.

Meanwhile we're seeing pretty consistent videos coming out of China of Kung Fu stylists getting utterly destroyed by sub-par MMA fighters. I mean, I really don't know how many examples we need until we finally just accept reality.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What other source have we been shown in this instance?

This is a VERY old discussion. I'll refer to things. You'll dismiss them because they don't fit your dogmatic view.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

a·nal·o·gy

/əˈnaləjē/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

You're welcome.

Actually pretty sad. You know better and can debate better. You know you're practicing a logical fallacy. It's like if someone walks into a busy street and won't admit buses exist.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, and some of those early fights were hilarious flail fests, no different from guys that were completely untrained(and in fact, some untrained guys dominated TMA guys..tank Abbot comes to mind) and every single one of them got pwned by BJJ, just BJJ, that isn't even good by today's standards.

And what happened then? Competition pushed the game forward. The lack of being tied to outdated methods and training that never worked as intended to begin with didn't hold it back the way it holds TMA back. Their training became realistic.

While modern martial arts and artists continue to be refined and improved every day, though whatever is shown to work, TMA guys continue to do the same junk they've been at since the 1950s or longer, under a culture of change=bad tradition=good

And now the divide between this and that is so wide that it's barely even the same subject anymore.

So, for something to be TMA, it must never progress. Now I understand your view.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm forced to agree with this overall assessment. The interesting thing is that fighters who specialize in Bjj and were elite level in sport Bjj are coming back into vogue now and have very impressive MMA records. Kron Gracie, Mckenzie Dern, Ryan Hall, and Garry Tonon just to name a few. That's something that really shouldn't be possible at this stage in MMA's evolution, but it's happening.

Meanwhile we're seeing pretty consistent videos coming out of China of Kung Fu stylists getting utterly destroyed by sub-par MMA fighters. I mean, I really don't know how many examples we need until we finally just accept reality.

BJJ has evolved with MMA, and seems to continue to train things that work outside the BJJ competitions. Most styles don't do that as well.

 

[Martial D]

I'm forced to agree with this overall assessment. The interesting thing is that fighters who specialize in Bjj and were elite level in sport Bjj are coming back into vogue now and have very impressive MMA records. Kron Gracie, Mckenzie Dern, Ryan Hall, and Garry Tonon just to name a few. That's something that really shouldn't be possible at this stage in MMA's evolution, but it's happening.

Meanwhile we're seeing pretty consistent videos coming out of China of Kung Fu stylists getting utterly destroyed by sub-par MMA fighters. I mean, I really don't know how many examples we need until we finally just accept reality.

Ehh. BJJ is an action style. It is still relevant because it's all about innovation. It adds up that it should still be relevant.

If everyone worshipped at the altar of Gracie, and just tried to emulate what he did as if it were Canon. (As many TMA do) BJJ would be antiquated and very much less relevant today.

 

[jobo]

Aside from the hundreds of videos of guys trying their TMA against actual fighters and getting quickly pummeled, I guess.

but you said claim to have used it in a FIGHT, if you mean ring fight, then that's only a tiny % of all the fights in the world . so you cant assume that has any relevance out the very tiny spectrum of ring fights

So were the evidence you claim that TMA is rarely effective in FIGHTS