The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by Alan Smithee, Nov 22, 2019.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    17,795
    Likes Received:
    4,376
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Which is why I have such a low opinion of self defence martial arts.

    People are working of such a terrible source matter that the standard is that people will lie.

    Exactly like court by the way.
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,655
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I don't even remember how we got here.

    That's the kind of thing that drives me nuts about associations (and it's by no means unique to Judo). Too often, they simply decide their approach is the only good approach and quash others, rather than letting others exist (since if theirs was actually best, it would likely not be adversely affected).
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,655
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I agree that how it was used in the video wasn't a drill. That was my point a few posts back - it looks like they took some potentially useful drills and just ran them in chaos mode.
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,655
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    It's not an analogy, because the two aren't analogous. You've taken one concept (someone being able to perform pretty much any of a range of techniques in the wild) and compared it with another concept (someone being able to take a trip to Mars) that has no real equivalency. Hence ad absurdum.

    If you'd used "I went to Atlanta", that would be analogous.
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,655
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    You have a low opinion of them because you have a stereotyped view of them and group them all into that stereotype. You've displayed that particular cognitive bias over and over, even making claims about how I teach and train without any knowledge.
     
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,655
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    You once again go for the binary situation. It's not binary. Hearing first-hand reports supplements other sources. And you're assuming some sort of culture set-up that I'm not sure exists.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,655
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    What about the TMA guys who've fought in MMA? I mean, there were a fair few in the early years, and they seemed to have some effective material. There are fewer now, as there has been more blending of arts and more specialization of training to the context.
     
  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,399
    Likes Received:
    2,197
    Trophy Points:
    263
    There may be fewer TMA ONLY fighters there but TMA techniques are used all the time.


    Backfist, spinning backfists, elbow strikes, round house, spinning back kicks, front heel kicks, upper cuts, hooks, big wheel punches like what is seen in Hung ga, Choy li Fut, Jow Ga, Low leg kicks, the oblique kick, axe kicks, spinning round house kicks, sweeps, spinning elbows, side kicks, flying knees, and front snap kicks are all found in TMA and seen in MMA. If we were to take away all TMA techniques out of MMA how much would be left to fight with?

    If that video isn't evidence, then I begin to wonder what people consider TMA and what they visualize as TMA. Are they expecting something like Movie Martial arts where the guy easily takes out a bunch of people with a TMA system? Is this what they are expecting to see in an MMA fight? If so then there is confusion between movie fighting with TMA and real fighting with TMA.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Randy Pio

    Randy Pio White Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    3

    Yes, 100%. But on both sides- new practitioners expect the ability to do this and spectators expect to see it.

    -RP
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    17,795
    Likes Received:
    4,376
    Trophy Points:
    308
    What other source have we been shown in this instance?
     
  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    17,795
    Likes Received:
    4,376
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Not at all. Just the closer I looked the more inconsistencies I found.

    You could refute any claim I make with evidence at any time.

    I am confused why you don't. It just ads weight to any claim I make.
     
  12. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    2,998
    Likes Received:
    896
    Trophy Points:
    213
    a·nal·o·gy

    /əˈnaləjē/
    Learn to pronounce
    noun
    1. a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

    You're welcome.
     
  13. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    2,998
    Likes Received:
    896
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Yes, and some of those early fights were hilarious flail fests, no different from guys that were completely untrained(and in fact, some untrained guys dominated TMA guys..tank Abbot comes to mind) and every single one of them got pwned by BJJ, just BJJ, that isn't even good by today's standards.

    And what happened then? Competition pushed the game forward. The lack of being tied to outdated methods and training that never worked as intended to begin with didn't hold it back the way it holds TMA back. Their training became realistic.

    While modern martial arts and artists continue to be refined and improved every day, though whatever is shown to work, TMA guys continue to do the same junk they've been at since the 1950s or longer, under a culture of change=bad tradition=good

    And now the divide between this and that is so wide that it's barely even the same subject anymore.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,177
    Likes Received:
    740
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I'm forced to agree with this overall assessment. The interesting thing is that fighters who specialize in Bjj and were elite level in sport Bjj are coming back into vogue now and have very impressive MMA records. Kron Gracie, Mckenzie Dern, Ryan Hall, and Garry Tonon just to name a few. That's something that really shouldn't be possible at this stage in MMA's evolution, but it's happening.

    Meanwhile we're seeing pretty consistent videos coming out of China of Kung Fu stylists getting utterly destroyed by sub-par MMA fighters. I mean, I really don't know how many examples we need until we finally just accept reality.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,655
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    This is a VERY old discussion. I'll refer to things. You'll dismiss them because they don't fit your dogmatic view.
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,655
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Actually pretty sad. You know better and can debate better. You know you're practicing a logical fallacy. It's like if someone walks into a busy street and won't admit buses exist.
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,655
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    So, for something to be TMA, it must never progress. Now I understand your view.
     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    22,655
    Likes Received:
    6,671
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    BJJ has evolved with MMA, and seems to continue to train things that work outside the BJJ competitions. Most styles don't do that as well.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    2,998
    Likes Received:
    896
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Ehh. BJJ is an action style. It is still relevant because it's all about innovation. It adds up that it should still be relevant.

    If everyone worshipped at the altar of Gracie, and just tried to emulate what he did as if it were Canon. (As many TMA do) BJJ would be antiquated and very much less relevant today.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    6,648
    Likes Received:
    967
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    but you said claim to have used it in a FIGHT, if you mean ring fight, then that's only a tiny % of all the fights in the world . so you cant assume that has any relevance out the very tiny spectrum of ring fights

    So were the evidence you claim that TMA is rarely effective in FIGHTS123
     

Share This Page