Taking the Martial out of the Art.....

[tsdmdk]

I have not trained in twenty years, started in college, made red belt then just recently started training again. I trained privately here and there, so I am not that disabled. I am a traditional TSD practioner, and so remember training with no gear on a concrete floor.

After visiting a few schools I found my way back to a traditional TSD school that I initially thought was too expensive. But seriously, after visiting those other schools I noticed they had a very watered down version of the martial arts. Mainly they removed all the seriousness/discipline, lots of high fives, and played music (disco at times) for the whole session. Much of this I thought was marketing, emphasizing the exercise/aerobic quality, and making it fun so people would return. Too difficult, which is what martial arts training is, and you would be hard pressed to find students. That reminds me of the original episode of "Kung Fu" and David Carridine's young character whole waited in the rain for an opportunity to train with the Shaolin.

When I made it back to the TSD school the instructor and I talked for a while. Obviously liability and insurance dictated a soft floor, and padding on everyone. It seems like being black belt is everything and so some schools pretty much will give you black belt if you just show up enough times. As a friend said, "Getting a black belt is easy -- just remember a few forms, spar, and every once in a while break some wood". The martial arts always had its grounding in being martial, except now it is trying to compete with baseball, football, soccer, as sports. And, sadly it cant compete since those attract more of crowd and more attention. And, they are easier for kids and more fun to boot!!!

The martial piece got moved to the thugs that participate in competitive brawling, like the MMA. They have lousy technique and are basically large, violent people. I dont expect MA to stay the same, nothing stays the same, but must it evolve, or degrade into something worse. I think it is often like music, it sometimes has to get bad before it will get better again.

Any thoughts?

 

[ETinCYQX]

I have not trained in twenty years, started in college, made red belt then just recently started training again. I trained privately here and there, so I am not that disabled. I am a traditional TSD practioner, and so remember training with no gear on a concrete floor.

After visiting a few schools I found my way back to a traditional TSD school that I initially thought was too expensive. But seriously, after visiting those other schools I noticed they had a very watered down version of the martial arts. Mainly they removed all the seriousness/discipline, lots of high fives, and played music (disco at times) for the whole session. Much of this I thought was marketing, emphasizing the exercise/aerobic quality, and making it fun so people would return. Too difficult, which is what martial arts training is, and you would be hard pressed to find students. That reminds me of the original episode of "Kung Fu" and David Carridine's young character whole waited in the rain for an opportunity to train with the Shaolin.

When I made it back to the TSD school the instructor and I talked for a while. Obviously liability and insurance dictated a soft floor, and padding on everyone. It seems like being black belt is everything and so some schools pretty much will give you black belt if you just show up enough times. As a friend said, "Getting a black belt is easy -- just remember a few forms, spar, and every once in a while break some wood". The martial arts always had its grounding in being martial, except now it is trying to compete with baseball, football, soccer, as sports. And, sadly it cant compete since those attract more of crowd and more attention. And, they are easier for kids and more fun to boot!!!

The martial piece got moved to the thugs that participate in competitive brawling, like the MMA. They have lousy technique and are basically large, violent people. I dont expect MA to stay the same, nothing stays the same, but must it evolve, or degrade into something worse. I think it is often like music, it sometimes has to get bad before it will get better again.

Any thoughts?

I think you're generalizing way too much, and as a school owner I personally resent being referred to as a "thug with lousy technique" because I choose to compete in martial arts. You'll need to rethink that to get along well in martial arts as a whole.

Believe it or not, the quality of your martial arts instruction has absolutely nothing to do with the floor on which you train.

That said, welcome to the boards.

 

[Cyriacus]

I have not trained in twenty years, started in college, made red belt then just recently started training again. I trained privately here and there, so I am not that disabled. I am a traditional TSD practioner, and so remember training with no gear on a concrete floor.

Now youre making me want to hop onto our Hard-Wood Training Floor

After visiting a few schools I found my way back to a traditional TSD school that I initially thought was too expensive. But seriously, after visiting those other schools I noticed they had a very watered down version of the martial arts. Mainly they removed all the seriousness/discipline, lots of high fives, and played music (disco at times) for the whole session. Much of this I thought was marketing, emphasizing the exercise/aerobic quality, and making it fun so people would return. Too difficult, which is what martial arts training is, and you would be hard pressed to find students. That reminds me of the original episode of "Kung Fu" and David Carridine's young character whole waited in the rain for an opportunity to train with the Shaolin.

Mm... In this Town, there are Five TKD Dojangs. Only Two of them have more than 15 Students. One of them is the one I Train in.
Whats interesting, is that we are also the Two that take things almost too Seriously.

When I made it back to the TSD school the instructor and I talked for a while. Obviously liability and insurance dictated a soft floor, and padding on everyone. It seems like being black belt is everything and so some schools pretty much will give you black belt if you just show up enough times. As a friend said, "Getting a black belt is easy -- just remember a few forms, spar, and every once in a while break some wood". The martial arts always had its grounding in being martial, except now it is trying to compete with baseball, football, soccer, as sports. And, sadly it cant compete since those attract more of crowd and more attention. And, they are easier for kids and more fun to boot!!!

Martial Arts arent meant to be Fun - Theyre meant to be Enjoyed. Which can be Fun. Im not sure if thats what you were saying, but if it was, then Yes

The martial piece got moved to the thugs that participate in competitive brawling, like the MMA. They have lousy technique and are basically large, violent people. I dont expect MA to stay the same, nothing stays the same, but must it evolve, or degrade into something worse. I think it is often like music, it sometimes has to get bad before it will get better again.

Albeit, these things arent Trees. One changing doesnt change the whole System. It just means an Individual has Displaced the Meaning of the Art.

Any thoughts?

My thought would be that youre generalising, a bit
Also, Lousy Technique is seperable from Speed and Power. Lets not think Technique is everything now.
I could talk more about this, but the Above Respondant has already done that.
But needless to say, if its Lousy Technique and Competitive Brawling, why not Spar them, just to show them how much better the other Option is?
By which I mean, see what I mean about Speed and Power firsthand.

In any case, now to Supporting your Statements.
The problem is, the lack of Enforced Standards in some places.
Where I Train, for example, the Dojang is part of an Organisation which is a Branch of the ITF. As such, both Enforce Standards upon each other.
With the KKW/WTF Form; The KKW Sets the Standards, and the Dojangs have to keep them.
Individual Halls (In ANY MA) can either be Equal, Better than, or Worse than, an Organisation run Hall.

As such, the Problem is, that not having that Enforced Standard can lead to Negative Alterations. And its a Slippery Slope.

 

[Tez3]

I have not trained in twenty years, started in college, made red belt then just recently started training again. I trained privately here and there, so I am not that disabled. I am a traditional TSD practioner, and so remember training with no gear on a concrete floor.

After visiting a few schools I found my way back to a traditional TSD school that I initially thought was too expensive. But seriously, after visiting those other schools I noticed they had a very watered down version of the martial arts. Mainly they removed all the seriousness/discipline, lots of high fives, and played music (disco at times) for the whole session. Much of this I thought was marketing, emphasizing the exercise/aerobic quality, and making it fun so people would return. Too difficult, which is what martial arts training is, and you would be hard pressed to find students. That reminds me of the original episode of "Kung Fu" and David Carridine's young character whole waited in the rain for an opportunity to train with the Shaolin.

When I made it back to the TSD school the instructor and I talked for a while. Obviously liability and insurance dictated a soft floor, and padding on everyone. It seems like being black belt is everything and so some schools pretty much will give you black belt if you just show up enough times. As a friend said, "Getting a black belt is easy -- just remember a few forms, spar, and every once in a while break some wood". The martial arts always had its grounding in being martial, except now it is trying to compete with baseball, football, soccer, as sports. And, sadly it cant compete since those attract more of crowd and more attention. And, they are easier for kids and more fun to boot!!!

The martial piece got moved to the thugs that participate in competitive brawling, like the MMA. They have lousy technique and are basically large, violent people. I dont expect MA to stay the same, nothing stays the same, but must it evolve, or degrade into something worse. I think it is often like music, it sometimes has to get bad before it will get better again.

Any thoughts?[/QUOTE

Really? so why is this small middle aged woman doing MMA? Martial artists are doing MMA, they come from all styles and often do MMA in conjunction with their base art. Please don't disrespect martial artists you don't know based on perceptions you have of MMA gathered from goodness knows where. Oh and I do TSD as well, having previously trained in Wado Ryu karate.

 

[NSRTKD]

I respect what you're saying... you just returned to formal training, and things have changed, and it's hard not to feel like earning rank was more difficult when you earned it before, and that they hand out black belts for a lot less earned work.

It's because Martial Arts is treated as a sport rather than the example you gave from "Kung Fu", and has a considerable market in the sport world, and calling it a sport brings many new students. It helps the teachers and parents understand that it's a part of a physical fitness endeavor for kids and adults alike. Many parents view martial arts as a "barbaric" practice until it's introduced to them in a lighter, more sport-like manner. It helps the parents see that their children will not just get beat up or learn to beat people up in martial arts, and that even the children with very little prowess in physical activities can excell at it. It brings in students and parents and helps relations with the general public, who unfortunately, sometimes see martial arts as exactly what you said: The large, violent brawlers of UFC.

That all being said, dig deeper for a MORE traditional school for yourself if the school you have selected doesn't suit your desires. The really traditional schools DO exist, if you go to enough of them and look for smaller clubs. You're right that most will not train on concrete because of insurance and liability reasons, but you can find schools that insist upon standing in perfect rank, that don't allow outbursts of high-fives until class is over, that play no music during class and that perfect technique before allowing a new rank. These schools are out there, but because of the reasons above, they are hard to find: It's not easy to market martial arts as anything but a sport, and there aren't enough adults interested in the more difficult training so it has to be geared towards kids, and towards pleasing their parents.

Everybody wants something different out of martial arts. You might find great pleasure in attending a school with less strict discipline and MODELING traditional behavior for the less experienced students, and might find the instructors very pleased that you're willing to do so.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Interesting. From my point of view, martial arts has changed in the other direction. From what I have been told, the teaching used to quite regularly result in students being seriously injured and requiring medical attention. Discipline exceeded that given to military recruits in boot camp for minor infractions, and competitions were brutal slug-fests.

While our dojo is not all sexed up with music and dancing (we are a traditional Okinawan karate type dojo), we do calisthenics to warm up (sometimes to music, but rarely), we wear protective gear when we spar, we try not to hurt each other (we hit hard, but we learn control, most of us have to go to work in the morning), and competitions for those who choose to participate are generally light touch sparring with protective gear and plenty of judges to ensure no one is seriously injured. But we still learn solid principles and self-defense techniques that are solid, powerful, and fast. Rank progression is not guaranteed, and since I've been studying for three years now and still have (at best guess) another two years minimum to go to my first degree black belt, I would not say that it's a given. Our dojo celebrates 30 years under our sensei this month.

Perhaps you need to find another training center or another style entirely? There's generally something for everyone out there. Find one that fits your requirements!

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I'm not sure that I can add much to what the others above have already posted. Taking into consideration your 20 year hiatus, the difference you may see in the general training hall can be quite significant. I practice Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo, and even our traditional association has changed over time to fit societal needs. Our KJN used to say a good BB is always hurt, and it was common place 20 years ago to see atleast half of the students nursing some sort of injury. Needless to say that hurts student retention because people have to get up to go to work the next day, as Bill pointed out. The days of the instructor correcting your stance by kicking your leg or striking it with a stick are now long gone in our association. While I have fond memories of that training, I doubt more than a handful at my dojang would endure such treatment now.

It took me 7 years to earn my BB, and I still uphold that my students must earn their rank, they don't just get it when they've put in their time. Basically what I'm getting at, is that while there are many training halls out there that are "fly by night mcdojangs," there are still schools that instill the same essence of the traditional arts (i.e. self-defense, self-discipline, self-respect, etc.).

As Tez pointed out, you may want to empty your proverbial cup a bit in respect to martial arts you have little exposure and no experience in while reading and posting here on MT. What you see on TV is a small subset of MMA, just as the ISKA "karate" you see on ESPN cannot be used to define Karate Do.

I hope you find a dojang that gives you what you are looking for.

 

[Steve]

Even though the OP is a blatant troll, these kinds of posts are interesting to me because it highlights different peoples' opinions and perceptions.

Welcome to the boards. I hope you hang around and contribute to the forums in a positive way.

 

[tsdmdk]

I dont understand all the hostility. I merely did some driving around, talked to some people, sat and watched some trainings at various schools. I was not impressed with the instruction or the approach with many of the schools. (From the city where I work, I pass no less than four schools on my way home. Two are very close to me.) That's want I was commenting on. I would fire the same criticism at an online school offering PhD instruction. Where there is a demand there will be phonies and not acknowledging that exists is just plain folly. Schools are all under pressure to bring in students, without students you have no income and you cease to exist. How exactly do you balance that in todays world? You have to pay the light bill.

I dont want to waste my money or my time. I decided to spend more money ($120 a month) on a place that offered a more traditional approach, rather than a disco/exercise type instruction. I also was not interested in MMA, or just kicking a bag and be fooled into thinking I was really learning something. (BTW I've had a 80lb bag in my basement for years.)

This just came to mind. About ten years ago, right after Christmas, I signed up for a Kung Fu class (still have the uniform). I had some extra money and it was a introductory, three months, offer. I was a good student but then at the end of the three months I was put under extreme pressure to sign a contract for a year. It created a lot of tension between the instructor and me, as at the end of each training he would try to talk me into signing up. Simply, I did not have the money. Presently all the schools are gone, and I learned the head instructor is in jail for stealing. Many of the contracts were not honored as the schools often closed, and moved some where else to more fertile grounds.

 

[NSRTKD]

I didn't intend hostility, simply intended to point out that a school with a different approach from what you remember as traditional doesn't equal a "phony"...

 

[Steve]

Hostility? I think this might explain things a little. I thought your first post was answered in a surprisingly nice way. Why would you be confused?

Your first post managed to be insulting to just about everyone here in one way or another, and you were expecting people to agree? As I said, I hope you just didn't come across the way you intended. Written language is a funny thing and your tone in writing may be very different than what you intend to communicate. It's understandable, and as I said before, I hope you stick around and contribute to the forums in a positive way. But you asked for thoughts, so I'll try to provide a few specifics.

Regarding your first post, you equate seriousness with discipline. You then presume that both of these can't exist in a school where music is played. We play music all the time at my school, during warm-ups and when we're sparring at the end of class. We're also serious, and I believe anyone who's tried BJJ would tell you that, music or not, it's difficult.

You touch on some points regarding kids and training that I agree with, but I'm not sure I completely agree with the conclusions you're drawing. I have a real issue with the way that many martial arts schools teach kids, implying competence that they don't have. The benefit that baseball, football, soccer, the chess team, dance lessons, and music lessons (to name a few) have over most martial arts schools is that at the end of a year in any one of these activities, the kid will be able to do those things. And their improvement can be marked over time. After 5 years, a child can be pretty damned good at baseball, football, soccer, chess, dancing or playing a musical instrument. After 5 years of "self defense", they may actually be worse at defending themselves than had they not taken any lessons at all. Fun is a testament to the coach and the parent than to the activity at hand, but I believe that anything that isn't work should be enjoyable, and where kids are involved "fun" has to be a big part of the activity.

There are a lot of very serious martial artists who train and compete in MMA. It takes both seriousness and discipline to do what they do. They're also, as a group, some very genuine, very nice guys. You are either completely ignorant regarding MMA or you are intentionally stirring the pot. If the latter, you're just trolling the boards, which is stupid and tiresome. If you're simply ignorant, you can easily learn by stopping into a good gym and giving it a shot. You'll certainly hit the bags. You might hear some music. You'll also learn technique, guaranteed. But I'd recommend leaving that chip on your shoulder at home. Going into any school with an attitude will likely lead to a negative experience. We've had douchebags around before, and like the thugs, they either figure it out and relax or leave.

 

[Cyriacus]

I didn't intend hostility, simply intended to point out that a school with a different approach from what you remember as traditional doesn't equal a "phony"...

Furthermore, the OP Exagerrates the effect. It really isnt this wide-spread.
Free Advice: Always Re-Read everything, and make sure its clear. And if it is, then its the Other Persons Interpritation you can question, rather than your own Statement.
And you were not Hostile.

Partial/Full Disagreement on an Aspect =/= Hostility.

 

[kbarrett]

The "martial" is still out there you only need to find the right Dojang and the rigth instructor, who still believes in the old "martial" ways and their out there.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett

 

[Kaygee]

I have witnessed what the original poster has claimed! Before I found the TSD school that I attend, I went and watched classes at a lot of very bad schools. I think my research took me to 18 different schools.

I will not name the schools because it is not fair if it was just a bad school in one chain.

I went to one TKD school, and the "8th dan" that went to sign me up, was eager to get me into his "black belt program", which basically means that I pay a certain amount of money, and in two years, I get my black belt. So he sends me downstairs to see a class that his wife is teaching. I go downstairs and not a word is being spoken. The woman instructor notices that she has guests, and grunts to her students and one of them come up. She performs some weird take down and then nods at everyone. Every single student had no idea what to do after that. Then she broke out the bags and had her students run up in a single file line and kick the bags. You could tell none of them were used to this drill.

I had enough so I went back upstairs, at which time I saw the "8th dan" teaching a Zumba class.

I went to a popular chain of an MMA/BJJ school. They were learning their thing, they had a huge student base, but the place was a gym, not a dojo or dojang and it was filled with testosterone. At the end of the class, the students ran over to the instructor and he opened up a locker........it looked like a bunch of starving people running up to a truck filled with rice....you know, the ones you see on TV where they start throwing out the bags of food at the people? Anyway, he wasn't handing out food, he was handing out belts and stripes.

After his class, the instructor took some time to talk to me. I asked him if there were any forms in the art that he teaches. He laughed at me and went into a basic front stance with a low block and said, "I can teach you to stand like this, if you want, but it isn't going to help you win a fight". I told him that I wasn't looking to win a fight, I was looking to learn an art. He laughed again and said "I'll teach you the forms if you really want me to."

That one made me the most angry. There is nothing worse than an instructor that has no respect for other styles of martial arts. I don't care if you think your style is the best, that is fine.....but do not go mocking other styles, that just shows that you have no discipline and, frankly, no class. All I could think about afterwards was all of his poor students that are being put out into the world, with nothing more than the knowledge of how to hurt another human being........

Most of the other schools were extremely "gimmicky", for the lack of a better word. Most of the schools were mostly just created for kids (which is fine, it is great to see children study a martial art, it helps in so many ways) but I wanted to find one with a good adult base.

I found an excellent Tae Kwon Do school, headed by an 8th dan grandmaster. He was well into his 80s and was one of the nicest guys that I have ever met. I met a lot of good adults there as well. However, I quickly discovered that, although beautiful and spectacular, the incredible kicks that are performed in TKD just weren't for me.......I wanted something more "practical". Also, being that the grandmaster was so old, he never taught class, so his black belts did.......his younger black belts, that seemed to have a serious attitude when it came to teaching new students. There is nothing worse than trying to learn something and knowing in the back of your mind, that the student teaching you has no interest in teaching you....in fact, they weren't hiding it at all! Another thing was, all of the students, no matter the rank, were doing the same thing.....there was no difference in rank, everyone marched back and forth and did the same hand techniques and the same kicks. The only thing that was different, were the forms.

The school was very traditional though, and I enjoyed my month there. I needed something else though.

When I walked into the school I now attend, I saw that there were two masters that were teaching the class. They had their floor completely sectioned off.....you could tell who were the beginners and who were the experts. They were all doing hand techniques, but different ones, according to rank. I really liked what I saw, when it came to discipline and presence on the floor from the masters. The last word out of your mouth better be "sir" or your arms better be ready for some pushups.

I will try to describe the way my school is in the best way that I can, although I am sure I will do it no justice.
Just about two months ago, I was sparring a "well known contact offender". If you don't know what I mean by that, I will explain. This is usually the description a student gets when they constantly make hard contact with other students in the dojang and hurt them. No one gets angry afterwards or holds a grudge, but they are just labeled that way and the other students are more cautious when they spar them. Anyway, while sparring this student, (he was a 1st gup, me a 3rd) he kicked me hard in the stomach with a side kick. Ok, I can deal with that....I should have blocked it, and I didn't...lesson learned....but I did fall down to one knee. When I was down though, the guy came up and tried to kick me.. Luckily my side block negated his front kick. When I got back up, I had had enough. He came in with another front kick, I stepped to my right into a low block with my left hand, and then I fired a yuk soo do into the side of his helmet with my right hand (and I stepped into that yuk soo do) Down he went!

I noticed one of my masters started walking towards me......he didn't stop, but when he walked by me he said to me, "watch your control"....my response (because I was so amped up) was, "Sir, he was hitting me hard", at which time my master turned around at me and yelled "FIFTY PUSHUPS NOW!!" Down I went and when I stood back up, that was the end of the sparring for the night.

After class, I saw my master in the changing room and I apologized to him. He asked me what I was apologizing for, I told him that I was sorry for hitting my fellow student so hard. He looked at me and smiled and said, "I didn't punish you for hitting your fellow student, I punished you for your reaction to my instruction when I told you to watch your control."

That is the only way I can truly describe the way that my school teaches Tang Soo Do. It is understood that is an art, but the martial part is definitely still there.

As I stated when I started this rant though, I see what the original poster has witnessed in today's dojos and dojangs. I know it isn't that way everywhere, because when I go to tournaments, I can see the discipline in the students from my sister schools......so it IS out there.....you just have to find it!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I went to a popular chain of an MMA/BJJ school. They were learning their thing, they had a huge student base, but the place was a gym, not a dojo or dojang and it was filled with testosterone. At the end of the class, the students ran over to the instructor and he opened up a locker........it looked like a bunch of starving people running up to a truck filled with rice....you know, the ones you see on TV where they start throwing out the bags of food at the people? Anyway, he wasn't handing out food, he was handing out belts and stripes.

After his class, the instructor took some time to talk to me. I asked him if there were any forms in the art that he teaches. He laughed at me and went into a basic front stance with a low block and said, "I can teach you to stand like this, if you want, but it isn't going to help you win a fight". I told him that I wasn't looking to win a fight, I was looking to learn an art. He laughed again and said "I'll teach you the forms if you really want me to."

Just to give you some perspective on the BJJ/MMA scene:

The bit about the belts/stripes is unusual. Promotions in BJJ are infrequent (typically 2-3 years between belts). MMA doesn't even have belt rankings. I've never seen students lined up around a locker for their new belts - typically the instructor will want to make a presentation to each individual student in front of the whole class.

There are no forms/kata in BJJ or MMA. This doesn't make BJJ any less of an art form. I don't know why the instructor would say that he could teach you "the forms" unless he originally came from some other art that did include kata.

High levels of testosterone are common, but not universal, in BJJ schools. The "gym" as opposed to "traditional dojo" vibe is pretty typical as well. This does not imply that discipline is lacking. There are more kinds of discipline than pseudo-military requirements for shouting "sir!" and doing pushups.

It does sound like you found the style of training environment that you find satisfying, so congratulations on that.

 

[Tez3]

I have witnessed what the original poster has claimed! Before I found the TSD school that I attend, I went and watched classes at a lot of very bad schools. I think my research took me to 18 different schools.

I will not name the schools because it is not fair if it was just a bad school in one chain.

I went to one TKD school, and the "8th dan" that went to sign me up, was eager to get me into his "black belt program", which basically means that I pay a certain amount of money, and in two years, I get my black belt. So he sends me downstairs to see a class that his wife is teaching. I go downstairs and not a word is being spoken. The woman instructor notices that she has guests, and grunts to her students and one of them come up. She performs some weird take down and then nods at everyone. Every single student had no idea what to do after that. Then she broke out the bags and had her students run up in a single file line and kick the bags. You could tell none of them were used to this drill.

I had enough so I went back upstairs, at which time I saw the "8th dan" teaching a Zumba class.

I went to a popular chain of an MMA/BJJ school. They were learning their thing, they had a huge student base, but the place was a gym, not a dojo or dojang and it was filled with testosterone. At the end of the class, the students ran over to the instructor and he opened up a locker........it looked like a bunch of starving people running up to a truck filled with rice....you know, the ones you see on TV where they start throwing out the bags of food at the people? Anyway, he wasn't handing out food, he was handing out belts and stripes.

After his class, the instructor took some time to talk to me. I asked him if there were any forms in the art that he teaches. He laughed at me and went into a basic front stance with a low block and said, "I can teach you to stand like this, if you want, but it isn't going to help you win a fight". I told him that I wasn't looking to win a fight, I was looking to learn an art. He laughed again and said "I'll teach you the forms if you really want me to."

That one made me the most angry. There is nothing worse than an instructor that has no respect for other styles of martial arts. I don't care if you think your style is the best, that is fine.....but do not go mocking other styles, that just shows that you have no discipline and, frankly, no class. All I could think about afterwards was all of his poor students that are being put out into the world, with nothing more than the knowledge of how to hurt another human being........

Most of the other schools were extremely "gimmicky", for the lack of a better word. Most of the schools were mostly just created for kids (which is fine, it is great to see children study a martial art, it helps in so many ways) but I wanted to find one with a good adult base.

I found an excellent Tae Kwon Do school, headed by an 8th dan grandmaster. He was well into his 80s and was one of the nicest guys that I have ever met. I met a lot of good adults there as well. However, I quickly discovered that, although beautiful and spectacular, the incredible kicks that are performed in TKD just weren't for me.......I wanted something more "practical". Also, being that the grandmaster was so old, he never taught class, so his black belts did.......his younger black belts, that seemed to have a serious attitude when it came to teaching new students. There is nothing worse than trying to learn something and knowing in the back of your mind, that the student teaching you has no interest in teaching you....in fact, they weren't hiding it at all! Another thing was, all of the students, no matter the rank, were doing the same thing.....there was no difference in rank, everyone marched back and forth and did the same hand techniques and the same kicks. The only thing that was different, were the forms.

The school was very traditional though, and I enjoyed my month there. I needed something else though.

When I walked into the school I now attend, I saw that there were two masters that were teaching the class. They had their floor completely sectioned off.....you could tell who were the beginners and who were the experts. They were all doing hand techniques, but different ones, according to rank. I really liked what I saw, when it came to discipline and presence on the floor from the masters. The last word out of your mouth better be "sir" or your arms better be ready for some pushups.

I will try to describe the way my school is in the best way that I can, although I am sure I will do it no justice.
Just about two months ago, I was sparring a "well known contact offender". If you don't know what I mean by that, I will explain. This is usually the description a student gets when they constantly make hard contact with other students in the dojang and hurt them. No one gets angry afterwards or holds a grudge, but they are just labeled that way and the other students are more cautious when they spar them. Anyway, while sparring this student, (he was a 1st gup, me a 3rd) he kicked me hard in the stomach with a side kick. Ok, I can deal with that....I should have blocked it, and I didn't...lesson learned....but I did fall down to one knee. When I was down though, the guy came up and tried to kick me.. Luckily my side block negated his front kick. When I got back up, I had had enough. He came in with another front kick, I stepped to my right into a low block with my left hand, and then I fired a yuk soo do into the side of his helmet with my right hand (and I stepped into that yuk soo do) Down he went!

I noticed one of my masters started walking towards me......he didn't stop, but when he walked by me he said to me, "watch your control"....my response (because I was so amped up) was, "Sir, he was hitting me hard", at which time my master turned around at me and yelled "FIFTY PUSHUPS NOW!!" Down I went and when I stood back up, that was the end of the sparring for the night.

After class, I saw my master in the changing room and I apologized to him. He asked me what I was apologizing for, I told him that I was sorry for hitting my fellow student so hard. He looked at me and smiled and said, "I didn't punish you for hitting your fellow student, I punished you for your reaction to my instruction when I told you to watch your control."

That is the only way I can truly describe the way that my school teaches Tang Soo Do. It is understood that is an art, but the martial part is definitely still there.

As I stated when I started this rant though, I see what the original poster has witnessed in today's dojos and dojangs. I know it isn't that way everywhere, because when I go to tournaments, I can see the discipline in the students from my sister schools......so it IS out there.....you just have to find it!

So you think a place that takes your money for a grading and doesn't tell you whether you have passed and where the 'headmaster' makes pseudo-mystical mutterings like 'when you get your black belt your kick will be very nice' is the ideal place to train? If you think it is why are you posting threads asking for our opinions what on school?

Do you think the quasi military atmosphere of 'give me 50 pushups' is the correct way to instill discpline in a civilian martial arts club? I don't and I'm an instructor in a military martial arts club. Your instructor is on an ego trip in my opinion.

You do know that martial arts are for more than just doing 'pretty' movements? The bottom line is fighting, it is being able to defend yourself against attackers, that's what it's for, if you chose to put 'art' into that, it's up to you but never forget why you learn to kick and punch.

 

[Kaygee]

So you think a place that takes your money for a grading and doesn't tell you whether you have passed and where the 'headmaster' makes pseudo-mystical mutterings like 'when you get your black belt your kick will be very nice' is the ideal place to train? If you think it is why are you posting threads asking for our opinions what on school?

Do you think the quasi military atmosphere of 'give me 50 pushups' is the correct way to instill discpline in a civilian martial arts club? I don't and I'm an instructor in a military martial arts club. Your instructor is on an ego trip in my opinion.

You do know that martial arts are for more than just doing 'pretty' movements? The bottom line is fighting, it is being able to defend yourself against attackers, that's what it's for, if you chose to put 'art' into that, it's up to you but never forget why you learn to kick and punch.

I am not sure why you are attacking me. I was unaware of how my school would be viewed by other Martial Arts professionals, such as yourself, so the things that you, and others, have stated over the past couple of days is new news to me, but I wanted feedback and I received it!
I am not sure why you are now using the fact that I asked for your opinions as something negative that I have done. After I received feedback that it probably wasn't a "good thing" that an isntructor would say something like that, I never defended them.

As stated, I value your opinion and appreciate that you took the time out to respond, but I do want more out of my martial art than just knowing how to fight! I know different people join for different reasons, and of course I want to learn how to defend myself, but I do enjoy tyring to get all of the forms and such in a correct manner that is acceptable to the instructors.

I am now confused.

 

[Tez3]

I am not sure why you are attacking me. I was unaware of how my school would be viewed by other Martial Arts professionals, such as yourself, so the things that you, and others, have stated over the past couple of days is new news to me, but I wanted feedback and I received it!
I am not sure why you are now using the fact that I asked for your opinions as something negative that I have done. After I received feedback that it probably wasn't a "good thing" that an isntructor would say something like that, I never defended them.

As stated, I value your opinion and appreciate that you took the time out to respond, but I do want more out of my martial art than just knowing how to fight! I know different people join for different reasons, and of course I want to learn how to defend myself, but I do enjoy tyring to get all of the forms and such in a correct manner that is acceptable to the instructors.

I am now confused.

I'm not atacking you in the least but your negative comments about others styles and ways of training will be questioned not just by me I'm afraid. You've already had comments about belts and forms in BJJ and MMA, the scenerio you describe isn't what happens at reputable BJJ and MMA gyms.

When you learn your hyungs do you also understand what they are for and why you do them? Or is it just about doing the movements?

 

[EddieCyrax]

When did MMA becomes something other than Mixed Martial Arts. Doesn't the MMA contain athletes who are trained and schooled in BBJ, wrestling, Kempo/Kenpo, Kung Fu, Karate, etc? It is the competition between individual with varying styles/disciplines on a controled combatitive stage.

I agree that there are alot of meat heads that pursue MMA without a real understanding of the history, but there are a lot of skilled Martial Artists as well. I would argue that the UFC contenders all have varying ranks in mutliple traditional arts.

As it relates to this topic, I think most have already discussed that there are many McDojo's out their, many poor instructors, but keep looking because there are equally as many quality schools/instructors in all the various traditional arts.

 

[Kaygee]

Tez3,
I'm sorry if you found my description of my experience at the ONE SCHOOL that taught MMA/BJJ school as a "negative comment", but it was not my intention to come off that way. I was just trying to tell a story about how ONE INSTRUCTOR seemed like he had no respect for the martial arts. I even stated in the beginning of my post I will not name the schools because it is not fair if it was just a bad school in one chain because I am sure they are all not like that.

I was certain, even before you stated so in your thread above, that the scenario that I described is not what happens at reputable BJJ and MMA gyms. I am getting the feeling that you took my post the wrong way.