Taking the Martial out of the Art.....

[Tez3]

I do not see any reason why I have to share the name of this school with you, or anyone!
I have posted my story and my story is on this forum and my story is true!......And it wasn't meant to put any type of school down, it was just my story. I woldn't have posted it if I knew people would be this sensitive to it.

Believe it, or don't believe it...that's your decision and it doesn't matter to me which decision you decide to make!

So make I'll it "very clear" in the thread for anyone reading now, and in the future, that my "allegation" is so far away from the norm, it's almost surely untrue.

There, I did it for ya! And I do not doubt that it was an odd occurrence! But it DID indeed happen! I've never witnessed so much anger and mistrust on a martial arts message board before......

Whoa, hold your horses mate, you haven't made Steve angry (that's my perogative by the way) nor is he mistrustful as such. You have made an allegation against a BJJ gym, Steve would like to know which one, nought wrong with that. I've already posted up a couple of reasons why we should know who this 'bad' place to train is. This is a public place, if you are going to make allegations one should substantiate them or not make them. You may be upset because you think you are being called a liar but all you are being asked is to give the name of the place so Steve can do some looking, it doesn't benefit anyone if there is a bad training place nor does it benefit anyone if a good place gets misunderstood and thought of as a bad place to go. Now many people reading this could think that BJJ isn't a good style to do just in case they end up in this place you talked about that's hardly fair is it?

 

[Tez3]

You don't. But at the same time, in any discussion here or anywhere else, it's a rare situation to be able to make unsubstantiated claims without expecting some push back. Were I to claim I walked into a Tang Soo Do school and saw the instructor teaching a class full of circus animals, I'd expect to either substantiate the claim or have my credibility questioned. It's far fetched. Well, here's the thing. It was intended to be a put down. You were absolutely critical of that school (and rightfully so, if it was actually run the way you say it was.) Thanks! I don't believe it. But I'm willing to admit my mistake should evidence to the contrary be provided.I don't think anyone's angry. I'm certainly not. I don't think Tez is. She's got a pretty thick skin. I am posting more with an iPad, and so my posts tend to be a lot shorter, which means that I'm cutting to the chase a little more. Typing on that little keypad with my fat fingers is tedious.

And I don't think we're inherently mistrustful. But if I were to say, "That guy teaching circus animals? His Sa Bum Nim is a 3rd dan AND a chimpanzee!" Is it possible? I... guess it could be. Would you take that at face value? I should hope not.

Ultimately, as I said earlier, if you ate at a terrible Italian Restaurant, would you be reluctant to share the name? I wouldn't. Yelp exists entirely based on the presumption that most wouldn't. Most people would consider your honest account to be helpful. So, why are you reluctant to share details of your experience here? I honestly don't get it.

Not in the least angry, very mellow in fact, it's Jubilee weekend, been out to watch the beacons being lit on the hills and came back to watch the Queen light the last one then we all sang 'Land of Soap and Water' sorry Land of Hope and Glory.

Someone thinks that because I asked if the instructor handing out 50 press ups is the sign of a good club I have attacked a poster here, I don't think instructors like that are good ones, I don't like pseudo-mystical martial arts clubs either, if I'd gone to one and found it like that, then posted up about it I would name it. Perhaps people would agree with me, perhaps not but I wouldn't say things against somewhere like that and leave the impression I thought all places that train that style are like that.

 

[Tez3]

A good article on BJJ for beginners and non BJJers.
http://www.rgaa.co.uk/blog_article.htm/my_blogs/progress_in_bjj

 

[Touch Of Death]

Do you think the quasi military atmosphere of 'give me 50 pushups' is the correct way to instill discpline in a civilian martial arts club? I don't and I'm an instructor in a military martial arts club. Your instructor is on an ego trip in my opinion.

Tez, he argued with the Master for God's sake! The correct answer was, yes sir. Then you can ask about it later. This isn't about an ego trip, its about discipline.
Sean

 

[Tez3]

Tez, he argued with the Master for God's sake! The correct answer was, yes sir. Then you can ask about it later. This isn't about an ego trip, its about discipline.
Sean

I've heard about places where you go for 'discipline'!

 

[Touch Of Death]

I've heard about places where you go for 'discipline'!

I thought that was our secret.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Based on Kaygee's posts so far, I think that he/she is sincere in his/her description of events. (Sorry for the pronoun confusion, but I haven't seen any gender identification so far.)

I do think it entirely likely that Kaygee happened to visit a phony BJJ school or a legit but crappy one or that he/she just misinterpreted what was going on there due to not having an appropriate frame of reference.

 

[Kaygee]

Based on Kaygee's posts so far, I think that he/she is sincere in his/her description of events. (Sorry for the pronoun confusion, but I haven't seen any gender identification so far.)

I do think it entirely likely that Kaygee happened to visit a phony BJJ school or a legit but crappy one or that he/she just misinterpreted what was going on there due to not having an appropriate frame of reference.

That is on point! And I clearly identified in my post that I do not like when any instructor (or any person for that matter) bashes or mocks another style.................so right there, I thought it was clear that I was blaming my bad experience on the instructor, not the school.....which, after further investigation on my part, is an MMA/BJJ/Kenpo school. So the "forms' that he referred to may very well have been the Kenpo forms (if Kenpo has forms). As I was informed on here by the wonderful, polite, and patient members of this community, that BJJ does not have forms.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I was in a kenpo school some years back. On the surface, they had everything right. Nice clean uniforms, clean training area, lots of happy little kids and their karate moms beaming as the instructors added more electrical tape to their belts as 'progress indicators', trophies on the wall, and so forth. Watching a class, there was the proper amount of 'japanese' being used, 'sensei' this and 'sensei' that, and lots of little shouting as they threw kicks and punches. It all looked "right".

Years later, having been to numerous kenpo events, talked to numerous 'names' in that art, become much more aware of what proper kenpo is, I can say without doubt the school was utter crap. They are still around, still open, still turning out 'black belts' who are walked through their tests step by step by the head instructor, still training that only the chest is a target, still mis-using Japanese terms, and still puffing like a steam engine when they throw a powerless punch. Their lineage chart has so much white out and dotted lines on it you'd think they had stock in the stuff.

The name's not important. There's one of these types of schools in every town...sometimes several.

Each of us have this 'idea' of what proper martial arts are, what the correct way to do our chosen arts, is. We got that by experience, training and 'getting out and seeing more'.

BJJ is a set system, with correct and incorrect ways to do a finite series of techniques. Someone new will not know this. Someone with a little bit of experience will not be able to see the difference between crap make believe and serious experience. Replace BJJ with any art. Doesn't matter.

In commercial schools there is a trend, a sad one IMO, to be more daycare than training. Things are grafted on to 'soften' things, because the 'karate moms who doat on their darlings' are the ones who pay to keep the lights on. Sparing is limited, simplified or often eliminated all together. Throws are dropped, contact limited or removed, and so forth. You end up with little more than karate-aerobics, but the fitness benefits are poor because you have stripped so much away.

The OP made some observations and asked for thoughts. Those are mine. YMMV.

One final one: You may learn all the moves to the dance, you may even be able to duplicate them flawlessly, but you haven't learned to dance until you understand why you do the moves.

 

[Tez3]

No one has been rude or abrasive on this thread. Misunderstandings abound when all you have is the written word, no facial expressions or tone of voice to guide one as to the intent of the words.
The only bashing of a style/club came from Kaygee who tells us we have read the post incorrectly, as I said sometimes what we are saying in our head doesn't come out the same when printed. I asked if he/she thought it was correct that an instuctor should discipline a student, an adult at that, by quasi military 'punishments', that's not an attack that's a question.

anyway going to cut this short, the Queen is on the balcony and the RAF abut to fly past.
I'll be back

 

[Touch Of Death]

No one has been rude or abrasive on this thread. Misunderstandings abound when all you have is the written word, no facial expressions or tone of voice to guide one as to the intent of the words.
The only bashing of a style/club came from Kaygee who tells us we have read the post incorrectly, as I said sometimes what we are saying in our head doesn't come out the same when printed. I asked if he/she thought it was correct that an instuctor should discipline a student, an adult at that, by quasi military 'punishments', that's not an attack that's a question.

anyway going to cut this short, the Queen is on the balcony and the RAF abut to fly past.
I'll be back

I asked "why" I didn't have my belt after a test, and got smacked for my trouble; so, push-ups aren't the end of the world. He won't argue again, I don't argue, and considering you hold peoples lives in your hand when practicing, someone should have the authority to say, "Stop! Show some control.". If that repels you, then you aren't practicing in a safe environment.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

We have a saying, in our group, that we have the kids recite. "Listening creates reflexes. Not listening creates, strong arms." feel free to steal this.
Sean

 

[Tez3]

I asked "why" I didn't have my belt after a test, and got smacked for my trouble; so, push-ups aren't the end of the world. He won't argue again, I don't argue, and considering you hold peoples lives in your hand when practicing, someone should have the authority to say, "Stop! Show some control.". If that repels you, then you aren't practicing in a safe environment.
Sean

Repels me? why should it?
It can also a sign that someone could be on an ego trip, yelling 'give me 50 mister', this is why I was asking if if was appropriate, asking, please note, not saying 'good grief this is wrong'. We don't make people do 50 press ups, we don't need to, a quiet explanation of why you don't do something is enough, when teaching adults one treats them as adults not as conscripts into an army. Our environment is very safe thank you, we train MMA and fight full contact, our guys are used to training in much more dangerous environments and know how discipline should be applied.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Repels me? why should it?
It can also a sign that someone could be on an ego trip, yelling 'give me 50 mister', this is why I was asking if if was appropriate, asking, please note, not saying 'good grief this is wrong'. We don't make people do 50 press ups, we don't need to, a quiet explanation of why you don't do something is enough, when teaching adults one treats them as adults not as conscripts into an army. Our environment is very safe thank you, we train MMA and fight full contact, our guys are used to training in much more dangerous environments and know how discipline should be applied.

Having to do a question and answer session every time you correct someone is not an application of discipline.
Sean

 

[Kaygee]

when teaching adults one treats them as adults not as conscripts into an army

Actually, the word MARTIAL in martial arts has a lot to do with it being an "army" typed based of combat training.
And how each instructor teaches/disciplines their students is totally up to them. You teach/would teach a different way?....bravo to you! But your critique of my instructor telling me do 50 pushups is no different than my story about the BJJ/MMA school that I went to in which I had a bad experience at, at which you had so much to say about how I shouldn't say something "negative" about a school without naming it.

If you want, I can provide you with the defintiion of a hypocrite if you like.....because that is now MY opinion of YOU! It seems that you are quick to the draw to "call people out" on wether or not someone is credible or not because of their "negative comments", as you so eloquently put it, about a school, yet you do the same exact thing in your own, non-subtle way.

 

[Tez3]

Having to do a question and answer session every time you correct someone is not an application of discipline.
Sean

Ah I see, it's the old unquestioning obedience thing, doesn't work in an MMA class of adults who fight, another point against MMA I expect. We don't train in lines, we don't do the 'silence while training bit, it's all about exploring techniques, seeing what works for you in a fight. We don't 'correct' people as such, it doesn't work like TMA in that respect, we don't all have to do it exactly the same, some things work for some, others things don't, depends on height, weight, strength so yeah we have a lot of questioning going on, we still don't need to be doing 50 press ups. Our discipline is self discipline not that imposed form an instructor. We know the 'rules' about safety, tapping and the techniques to go carefully on, we don't need to be 'punished'.
I've been to quite a few TMA places that work on the principle that you will do a technique better if you know why you do it that way, not do it because I say so. Questions are indeed allowed in fact encouraged, I've always enjoyed training with instructors who will explain and answer questions. I've never trained anywhere that demanded instant obedience on the pain of doing press ups or other physical punishments.

 

[Kaygee]

I've never trained anywhere that demanded instant obedience on the pain of doing press ups or other physical punishments.

I tihnk I found your problem!

 

[Touch Of Death]

I've never trained anywhere that demanded instant obedience on the pain of doing press ups or other physical punishments.

Of that, I am sure.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I tihnk I found your problem!

Buy me a coke... without question!

 

[Touch Of Death]

Mind you Tez, adults generally stop acting un-disciplined after one correction. Its not an everyday thing.
Sean