Submissions on the street

[loki09789]

Oh, this is really mature for college edumacated (or is it educated/medicated?) sophisticates!

Paul M

 

[Black Bear]

The angry laser monkey is edumacated, but no one has ever accused him of being "mature". :lol:

 

[loki09789]

Lose the sheep skins and up the dosage!

 

[Black Bear]

Whatmeans "BOCES"? And do you find the assessments done by your people to be useful?

 

[loki09789]

BOCES.... I don't remember what the acronym stands for (tells you how often I utilize them), they basically provide the home schooling support/summer school instruction, some assessment work, and other county wide support...

Assessment...it all depends on the cases. One that I am really happy with is a student that was having a heck of a time with reading and comprehension. It got to the point that she, her parents and some teachers were thinking that she might have a diagnosable problem.

The counsellors were dragging on about getting her assessed because they were sure she was just not working hard.

I had her read some social study text and then explain it to me and she really 'couldn't', so I sort of pushed for the testing because: if it was truly a diagnosable problem, she would get the help/support she needed to cope and work within her problem. If it wasn't a problem, we eliminate an excuse not to do well - but in a positive way.

She was assessed to have a low reading comprehension ability, but not poor enough to be diagnosed. Now she as an 80 %, will graduate with merits and is getting a few poems published through an internet publisher - as well as attending a seminar, publishing release party in Florida...

Sorry, I tend to gush about students. In this case the assessment helped.

Paul M

 

[Black Bear]

Well that is good. A lot of my colleagues in this field really only know how to make a diagnosis, so someone can get funding. I question how worthwhile it is to have these practitioners consuming the earth's oxygen. I'm fortunate to be in a firm where they're teaching me to make really good, useful recommendations to the parents and teachers.

 

[moving target]

well a lot of locks won't nessisaraly break something, even an armbar that targets a joint like the elbow can simply hyperextend the joint. Wether or not you choke cross the wind pipe a quick choke (one that ends in a couple seconds) is braught about by a lack of oxogen to the brain. It still takes 2 or 3 seconds so it may not be an optimal choice.. I would prefer some sort of standing jointlock and I would want to pop it on to cause as much dammage as fast as posable whatever that dammage may be.

Unless I know the person.. If I know them I would choke them out if posable.

 

[loki09789]

"Wether or not you choke cross the wind pipe a quick choke (one that ends in a couple seconds) is braught about by a lack of oxogen to the brain."

True. But, deliver that choking motion with the same speed and power of a strike and you could end up with a crushed throat/joint damage of the neck. Changing a steadily increasing amount of force for the purpose of pressuring a joint/airway into a ballistic strike changes the affect of the technique.

A heel hand strike is mechanically the same as a shove, the deliver of force is what changes.

Paul M.

 

[moving target]

Well my point was that you can choke someone out anyway you like, as long as that choke is cutting off the blood to the brain. So you don't have to go across their throught if you don't want to (like if the person is your freind).

 

[Black Bear]

A choke that cuts off the carotid blood supply would usually not be the same sort of choke that would crush the trachea. Not just the speed thing, but the carotid choke means you'd be putting your long bones (e.g. radius and humerus) against the carotids, so they'd pretty much triangle at the trachea as opposed to lying flat against it, squashing it.

In fact, some folks advocate using the term "strangle" to refer strictly to vascular attacks, and "choke" to refer to attacks on the trachea. But most MAists would roll their eyes and say that's silly. :shrug:

And it takes more than 2-3 seconds to choke a guy into unconsciousness. IIRC there's a vascular dealy called the Circle of Willis that provides an extra couple seconds' worth of blood to the brain in the event of bilateral carotid occlusion.

 

[loki09789]

Originally posted by moving target
Well my point was that you can choke someone out anyway you like, as long as that choke is cutting off the blood to the brain. So you don't have to go across their throught if you don't want to (like if the person is your freind).

I like the point here about appropriateness. That sort of validates training for breaking/limb destruction and submission as well. If the person 'on the street' is a friend or anyone not necessarily posing a full on deadly threat, but might even be posing a threat to themselves, submissions might be the more reasonable option.

My unit was in Ft. Polk, La, before we went to Bosnia and one of our guys used submission/restraint techniques to keep a fellow soldier (drunk) from escalating a brewing fight between a hand ful of soldiers, including himself and a MOB of locals. Submission/restraint was definitely the better option in this case.

Paul M.

 

[moving target]

A choke that cuts off the carotid blood supply would usually not be the same sort of choke that would crush the trachea. Not just the speed thing, but the carotid choke means you'd be putting your long bones (e.g. radius and humerus) against the carotids, so they'd pretty much triangle at the trachea as opposed to lying flat against it, squashing it.

In fact, some folks advocate using the term "strangle" to refer strictly to vascular attacks, and "choke" to refer to attacks on the trachea. But most MAists would roll their eyes and say that's silly. :shrug:

And it takes more than 2-3 seconds to choke a guy into unconsciousness. IIRC there's a vascular dealy called the Circle of Willis that provides an extra couple seconds' worth of blood to the brain in the event of bilateral carotid occlusion.

well collapsing the trachea only cuts off a person's air, you can go for a wial with no air, so a choke that knocks someone out is going to be affecting blood flow to the brain. The carotids are right next to the trachea at the clavicle, granted they branch out from there but it's not hard to compress them with a choke that would come across the trachea. I know it's posable because I have been knocked out that way .

As to the choke/strangle thing, I genneraly just use the word choke. For one it's easier, For another Not all attacks to the throught can easily be sepperated into one or the other (some do both or can do either depending on how you apply preasure)

I just said 2-3 seconds as a min, I thought that was the estimated time your brain stais concious after decapitation. But I guess I was wrong. How fast can you strangle someone out?

 

[Black Bear]

I can't argue with your personal experience. In general it is found that a choke that bars the forearm against the trachea will cause pain and thrashing to the point shwere the trachea is really damaged, whereas a carotid choke just makes the guy go faint and pass out. You feel the guy go limp, not flail around. But hey, biological entities are all different.

 

[moving target]

I would agree

 

[KanoLives]

Just to add another perspective.
A good friend that I train with were working the rear naked choke. So I told him to really sinch it in just to see how long I had before I went out. I tapped at about 5 seconds cuz I knew I was goin' out. He let go....I took a step, then took a knee. Vision went fuzzy and got really dizzy.
Just thought I'd share my experiance with being choked out.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

In bouncing, I used a atanding version of the sleeve wheel choke a lot. Pin the guy against the nearest wall or table, loop one arm around the back of the nck to grab the sleeve of the other arm, then punch past the target with the 2nd arm...makes a great noose out of you clothing to gack him with, but wrecks shirts. Induces not only a choke, but great panic...being in it makes your head feel like it's going to pop off like a bean. Got tired of trying it in t-shirts on summer nights, so started wearing a tennis sweatband for the sleeve contact. Also brings you in close enough to jam a lot of his striking efforts while he flails around before fading to black.

 

[8253]

No submissions, if you must fight on the streets it should be for defending your or someone elses life. Submissions arent really a street application unless you have a way to detain them for a while untill you can get away. Unfortunatly that would be hard to do while you have to hold a person in a submission move. Anyone can say ouch that hurts i give up. Then when they get up you dont see thier other hand that gets the gun or knife out of their pocket. Then its over.

 

[loki09789]

No submissions, if you must fight on the streets it should be for defending your or someone elses life. Submissions arent really a street application unless you have a way to detain them for a while untill you can get away. Unfortunatly that would be hard to do while you have to hold a person in a submission move. Anyone can say ouch that hurts i give up. Then when they get up you dont see thier other hand that gets the gun or knife out of their pocket. Then its over.

There are a range of 'street' situations that we can prepare for though. What if the situation requires less lethal techniques like an argument turned ugly between relatives or a child (near adult - teen agish) having a fit. Lethal hit and run techniques wouldn't be the best choice. Submission/restraint holds would probably be more appropriate here. These are just as real, sometimes more likely even, as the lethal force level of attack that most 'street' situations that we envision. Being versed in a range of responses seems like a good idea. I wouldn't devote too much time to submission/restraint training, but having a familiarization/basic ability in it is helpful.

 

[MJS]

well collapsing the trachea only cuts off a person's air, you can go for a wial with no air, so a choke that knocks someone out is going to be affecting blood flow to the brain. The carotids are right next to the trachea at the clavicle, granted they branch out from there but it's not hard to compress them with a choke that would come across the trachea. I know it's posable because I have been knocked out that way .

As to the choke/strangle thing, I genneraly just use the word choke. For one it's easier, For another Not all attacks to the throught can easily be sepperated into one or the other (some do both or can do either depending on how you apply preasure)

I just said 2-3 seconds as a min, I thought that was the estimated time your brain stais concious after decapitation. But I guess I was wrong. How fast can you strangle someone out?

Anytime you attack the trechea you do run a serious risk of causing some permanent injury or even death. Now, you need to ask yourself if its worth killing someone. Did the attack warrant something like that? Even during practice, you should never take the chance and do a choke against the treachea. Cutting off the blood flow is a much better way of applying the choke.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Well my point was that you can choke someone out anyway you like, as long as that choke is cutting off the blood to the brain. So you don't have to go across their throught if you don't want to (like if the person is your freind).

As Black Bear already said, these are 2 very different chokes. If you dont know the difference, then I highly suggest that you get some proper training, otherwise you run the risk of causing some serious harm to someone.

Mike