What are the chances an attacker is going to try a "submission" technique?

[skribs]

What are the chances an attacker in a self-defense situation is going to try a "submission" technique? I put "submission" in quotes because I don't expect that someone willing to commit violence against me would stop when I tap out, but that they would take the arm bar all the way to snap or a chokehold all the way to a blackout.

Most of the time, when you need to act in self defense, I imagine it is one of two situations:

1. A hothead wants to fight, or someone is reacting emotionally and channels that into aggression and violence
2. Someone wants to coerce you into something (whether that is to do something for them, give something to them, or go with them somewhere)

In Situation #1, I can't imagine that someone on an emotionally-charged rampage is going to want to get into a submission hold. They're probably going to want to get in a position where they can just rain blows on you, because they want to feel the impact of their fists on someone else. Or, if they want to do as much damage as possible, they may have a weapon instead.

In Situation #2, I also don't see a submission hold as an incredibly useful technique. Someone who wants you to go somewhere I think is more likely to simply grab you, or else use coercive tactics like brandishing a knife or a gun, or or else disable with something like a taser or a chemical-soaked cloth.

The reason I bring up this question is because a lot of the discussion I see about self defense curriculums is that they aren't tested in the ring. My Taekwondo self defense skills are not put to the test in the Octagon, so therefore those techniques are unrefined. But I'm thinking, I don't need to defend myself in the Octagon against a pro MMA fighter trying to set up an arm-bar. I need to defend myself against some random person on the street who wants me to give him my wallet or wants to throw me down and then punch or kick me while I'm on the ground.

Am I thinking clearly, here? Is the likely defense situation going to be void of MMA grappling moves? How often would those show up by the attacker in a self-defense situation?

 

[Jaeimseu]

I’d think you are mostly correct about the likelihood of facing mma submissions in a self defense scenario. However, those grappling techniques are very useful to avoid getting beaten to death, control a single opponent on the ground, or escape and stand to run or continue fighting.


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[wab25]

Its not a 0% chance... too many people train, or have trained...

This would be situation #1 I think...

 

[skribs]

Its not a 0% chance... too many people train, or have trained...

This would be situation #1 I think...

On the one hand, the guy using BJJ wasn't the attacker. However, he didn't do much to try and de-escalate.

 

[skribs]

I’d think you are mostly correct about the likelihood of facing mma submissions in a self defense scenario. However, those grappling techniques are very useful to avoid getting beaten to death, control a single opponent on the ground, or escape and stand to run or continue fighting.


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I am not arguing against the validity of learning those techniques. I think they are very useful skills to know, and wish I had more time to cross-train so I could learn them.

What I am arguing against is the requirement to learn how to defend against those techniques in order to be considered a "real fighter".

 

[jobo]

What are the chances an attacker in a self-defense situation is going to try a "submission" technique? I put "submission" in quotes because I don't expect that someone willing to commit violence against me would stop when I tap out, but that they would take the arm bar all the way to snap or a chokehold all the way to a blackout.

Most of the time, when you need to act in self defense, I imagine it is one of two situations:

1. A hothead wants to fight, or someone is reacting emotionally and channels that into aggression and violence
2. Someone wants to coerce you into something (whether that is to do something for them, give something to them, or go with them somewhere)

In Situation #1, I can't imagine that someone on an emotionally-charged rampage is going to want to get into a submission hold. They're probably going to want to get in a position where they can just rain blows on you, because they want to feel the impact of their fists on someone else. Or, if they want to do as much damage as possible, they may have a weapon instead.

In Situation #2, I also don't see a submission hold as an incredibly useful technique. Someone who wants you to go somewhere I think is more likely to simply grab you, or else use coercive tactics like brandishing a knife or a gun, or or else disable with something like a taser or a chemical-soaked cloth.

The reason I bring up this question is because a lot of the discussion I see about self defense curriculums is that they aren't tested in the ring. My Taekwondo self defense skills are not put to the test in the Octagon, so therefore those techniques are unrefined. But I'm thinking, I don't need to defend myself in the Octagon against a pro MMA fighter trying to set up an arm-bar. I need to defend myself against some random person on the street who wants me to give him my wallet or wants to throw me down and then punch or kick me while I'm on the ground.

Am I thinking clearly, here? Is the likely defense situation going to be void of MMA grappling moves? How often would those show up by the attacker in a self-defense situation?

yes I agree, a lot of the discussion move quickly into what if, fantasy land.

the problem isn't they are "unrefined "so much as they are " undefined" you don't know if they will work or not in any given situation, you don't know how fit/ strong/ big your attacker will be and what skills they will have. they may have done 6 bjj,lesion, enough to get the hang of an arm bar. big strong heavy guys have a habit of grappling, trained or other wise as that were their advantage lies, if they have enough if a strength / weight advantage their lack if defined skill is a moot point

one thing is generally certain, if they are going to attack you, they believe they have the advantage or they wouldn't do it. you need to be confident in your own mind that they are wrong and then be able to demonstrate that,

so critically asses your abilities, your highly unlikely to be randomly attacked by a highly skilled mma fighter, but someone who has been watching it on the tv and thinks they will try out out on you, is a distinct possibility

 

[Danny T]

Uhhh...right no one gets choked or strangled in violent encounters. Oh and headlock and neck cranks don't happen either.

 

[skribs]

Uhhh...right no one gets choked or strangled in violent encounters. Oh and headlock and neck cranks don't happen either.

There are a lot more constructive ways you could have put that.

 

[wab25]

Its not to hard to find examples:

There were a lot more... but they were age restricted. The point is that you don't know what you are going to get. I would train to learn at least the basics, just like I would train to learn the basics of striking and take downs. And training with people who specialize in a particular area is very valuable, if you want to know if your stuff works.

 

[wab25]

On the one hand, the guy using BJJ wasn't the attacker. However, he didn't do much to try and de-escalate.

The point was not who was the aggressor... the point was that out in the real world, people have these skills and do use them effectively in real fights.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It happens in fights. I just wanted to add a reason number 3: to embarass the person, or prove yourself to friends (think bullying and/or gang initiations). In those situations, the attacker might actually choose to go to submissions, so they can see you beg to be let up.

 

[skribs]

The point was not who was the aggressor... the point was that out in the real world, people have these skills and do use them effectively in real fights.

But that's not the question. The question isn't "do people have these skills." The question is "if I am defending myself from someone, am I likely to need to defend myself against these skills?"

There is a difference. If people have these skills, but I'm not getting into fights with them, then it's not something I need to defend against. Just the fact they are used in street fights doesn't mean that someone who is going to attack me is going to have that objective in mind. I do believe there is a difference between a street fight and a self-defense situation. A street fight is an unregulated match in which two people have decided to use violence to sort out their differences, and both people are responsible for the situation occurring. A self-defense situation is when one person uses aggression on another, and the other is forced to defend themselves.

In the first post you made in this thread, and in the first video in your most recent post, it appears that both people were escalating the situation to the point of violence. Nobody had the presence of mind to back off and try to calm the situation down. This is not self defense, it is a street fight. Someone who has the necessary calm to avoid that situation is not going to need to defend against those techniques.

In the other two videos come into the situation in progress, so I have no idea whether it's a street fight or self-defense, and if it's the later than who is responsible for starting it.

I do think the difference is important, because there's a difference between "let's meet at the parking lot at 5 and throw down over this" vs. "hey, you, give me your wallet and your keys."

 

[skribs]

It happens in fights. I just wanted to add a reason number 3: to embarass the person, or prove yourself to friends (think bullying and/or gang initiations). In those situations, the attacker might actually choose to go to submissions, so they can see you beg to be let up.

That is one I hadn't considered.

 

[jobo]

Its not to hard to find examples:

There were a lot more... but they were age restricted. The point is that you don't know what you are going to get. I would train to learn at least the basics, just like I would train to learn the basics of striking and take downs. And training with people who specialize in a particular area is very valuable, if you want to know if your stuff works.

but this back to the university of you tube fantasy land, clearly there are SOME people walking round with these skills and there are some very dangerous people walking round with no formalised training at all, the question isn't can you find a you tube vid of the skills in question, its rather what's the likelihood of you being randomly attacked by such a person,

id say that was pretty dam low, if on the other hand you spend a good deal of your free time starting fights with random strangers, then there's a fairly good chance you will run into such a person sooner or later, just on the balance of probabilities and if there a camera phone in the vicinity of the fight, it will end up on you tube, for you to ascribe undue significance to

 

[jobo]

Its not to hard to find examples:

There were a lot more... but they were age restricted. The point is that you don't know what you are going to get. I would train to learn at least the basics, just like I would train to learn the basics of striking and take downs. And training with people who specialize in a particular area is very valuable, if you want to know if your stuff works.

and only one of them is recognisable as jutisu,( the first one) the other two just look a like a brawl, that someone has tagged as jujitsu to get more views

 

[wab25]

I do think the difference is important, because there's a difference between "let's meet at the parking lot at 5 and throw down over this" vs. "hey, you, give me your wallet and your keys."

Correct. I tried to avoid the videos where the two guys were obviously meeting to throw down.

But why would the chances of having grappling experience be different for the "give me your wallet guy" and the "meet me in the parking lot guy?" Does having grappling experience mean you will never be the "give me your wallet guy?"

the question isn't can you find a you tube vid of the skills in question, its rather what's the likelihood of you being randomly attacked by such a person,

I just figured that the number of occurrences of a thing happening and showing up on youtube is lower than the total number of occurrences of that same thing happening, whether filmed, or unfilmed. I don't see videos of no touch knock outs, or no touch throws being done in street fights or being caught on camera in real self defense situations and then posted on youtube. That doesn't mean they don't happen. But if I were to be attacked by a random guy... Using youtube searches, I would bet that its far more likely that he has grappling experience enough to cause me injury than it is for him to be skilled enough in the no touch arts to cause me injury. Therefore, I choose to spend more time studying grappling and submission things rather than how to hold my tongue to the side while I cross my toe.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The odds of an attacker (such as a mugger or rapist) jumping out and applying any kind of joint lock on you are vanishingly low. The same goes for specialized technical chokes such as a triangle choke or cross collar choke.

More instinctive chokes such as a rear naked choke, guillotine, or bulldog choke? Those happen. Strangulation or attempted strangulation is unfortunately a pretty common form of domestic violence. It can happen in other forms of assault as well.

If you're prioritizing the sort of attacks you need to be skilled in countering in a self-defense situation, then joint locks would be very low on the list. The common forms of chokes that a non- or minimally trained assailant might use? Those would be higher on the list.

There is a caveat to the above. If you train to use joint locks or sophisticated chokes for self-defense purposes, then you and your sparring partners should know how to counter them. This is so that you can have the experience of applying these moves against someone who is attempting to intelligently defend them, which will sharpen your technique much more than drilling with a compliant partner.

 

[skribs]

Correct. I tried to avoid the videos where the two guys were obviously meeting to throw down.

But why would the chances of having grappling experience be different for the "give me your wallet guy" and the "meet me in the parking lot guy?" Does having grappling experience mean you will never be the "give me your wallet guy?"

There's a difference between them having grappling experience, and them using it to achieve their goal. Someone who is trying to steal your wallet wants a quick interaction so there's a small window where they're less likely to get caught, and a grappling match is usually the opposite of quick.

Them wrestling with you doesn't help you get your wallet to them, and in fact may make it harder. They are more likely to try to intimidate you, either by shoving you against a wall, brandishing a weapon, or just acting tough and threatening violence. How many people are going to do a double-leg takedown, take side control, flip you into an armbar, and then say "by the way, give me your wallet?" It's an interaction that doesn't really make sense.

I just figured that the number of occurrences of a thing happening and showing up on youtube is lower than the total number of occurrences of that same thing happening, whether filmed, or unfilmed. I don't see videos of no touch knock outs, or no touch throws being done in street fights or being caught on camera in real self defense situations and then posted on youtube. That doesn't mean they don't happen. But if I were to be attacked by a random guy... Using youtube searches, I would bet that its far more likely that he has grappling experience enough to cause me injury than it is for him to be skilled enough in the no touch arts to cause me injury. Therefore, I choose to spend more time studying grappling and submission things rather than how to hold my tongue to the side while I cross my toe.

This is where I think the difference between "street fight" and "self defense" becomes apparent. I'm not saying no-touch KOs and no-touch throws work. But there's a lot more opportunity to grab your phone and film when two guys in a crowded gym are shouting at each other, than when someone shoves you into a wall out of the blue and says "give me your wallet".

 

[skribs]

The odds of an attacker (such as a mugger or rapist) jumping out and applying any kind of joint lock on you are vanishingly low. The same goes for specialized technical chokes such as a triangle choke or cross collar choke.

This is what I am asking about, thanks.

More instinctive chokes such as a rear naked choke, guillotine, or bulldog choke? Those happen. Strangulation or attempted strangulation is unfortunately a pretty common form of domestic violence. It can happen in other forms of assault as well.

Two thoughts here:

1. Maybe I should have differentiated between these and the other submissions
2. What is a bulldog choke?

If you're prioritizing the sort of attacks you need to be skilled in countering in a self-defense situation, then joint locks would be very low on the list. The common forms of chokes that a non- or minimally trained assailant might use? Those would be higher on the list.

This makes sense.

There is a caveat to the above. If you train to use joint locks or sophisticated chokes for self-defense purposes, then you and your sparring partners should know how to counter them. This is so that you can have the experience of applying these moves against someone who is attempting to intelligently defend them, which will sharpen your technique much more than drilling with a compliant partner.

I agree.

 

[jobo]

Correct. I tried to avoid the videos where the two guys were obviously meeting to throw down.

But why would the chances of having grappling experience be different for the "give me your wallet guy" and the "meet me in the parking lot guy?" Does having grappling experience mean you will never be the "give me your wallet guy?"

I just figured that the number of occurrences of a thing happening and showing up on youtube is lower than the total number of occurrences of that same thing happening, whether filmed, or unfilmed. I don't see videos of no touch knock outs, or no touch throws being done in street fights or being caught on camera in real self defense situations and then posted on youtube. That doesn't mean they don't happen. But if I were to be attacked by a random guy... Using youtube searches, I would bet that its far more likely that he has grappling experience enough to cause me injury than it is for him to be skilled enough in the no touch arts to cause me injury. Therefore, I choose to spend more time studying grappling and submission things rather than how to hold my tongue to the side while I cross my toe.

why have you introduced no touch fights as a comparator, they and your comparison is just silly.

you tube is a very selected version of reality, if you get beat up and it's your friend filming it, it doesn't end up on you tube, if two blokes wrestle around and nothing much happens th they run out of puff and go home, it doesn't end up one you tube. if a few million people go for a Saturday night out and don't get in a fight, it doesn't end up on you tube

if you search bjj in street fight and end up with dozens of examples from the seven billion population of the world, that doesn't mean its common place

you could if you wanted an informed estimate, consider what % of the counties population study bjj, and then work out how likely you were to even meet/ interact with one in a year,, (other than your bjj class,) let alone be attacked by one for no reason at all