Submissions on the street

[J-kid]

Would anyone use submissions on the street besides chokes.

I would have to think about it even though it would be easy for me to break a arm i wouldnt usally want to unless i have no choice. What about you guys....

 

[OULobo]

Broken arms and shattered knees are better than morgue trips. I think you could defend yourself in court better if you can say that you broke his arm to subdue him instead of killing him, plus I don't think anyone will continue to come after you if you were to break something.

Chokes are risky. If you do them well you can make your attacker sleep, but too much will kill them and its almost imposible to tell where the line is, especially if you are in the heat of the moment.

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by OULobo
Chokes are risky. If you do them well you can make your attacker sleep, but too much will kill them and its almost imposible to tell where the line is, especially if you are in the heat of the moment.

Unless you actually crush the windpipe, chokes aren't that lethal. Once the opponent is "asleep", you still need to hold the choke on for quite a while before the opponent suffers permanent damage.

However, I would never use a choke on the street. My reasoning: a choke takes time to apply to the point where you can actually let go again. If there's more than one attacker, you've got yourself to the point where you either let go to defend against the second attacker or hold on and get hit.

With an armlock, wrist lock, neck lock, etc, you have to option of an instant break and release which should leave most opponents incapacitated, and leaves you free to deal with a second attack. Much quicker and more instantly effective than a choke.

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

I would, depending on the circumstances.

 

[Cruentus]

Depends...

For most people, Submissions aren't necissary. If they fight, it is because they can't run & their life is in danger, so they should break, maim, or kill if they have to if it means saving their own life.

Cops, Bouncers, larger older people against younger smaller assailants, etc....submissions then become useful.

:asian:

 

[tmanifold]

Originally posted by Aegis
Unless you actually crush the windpipe, chokes aren't that lethal. Once the opponent is "asleep", you still need to hold the choke on for quite a while before the opponent suffers permanent damage.

However, I would never use a choke on the street. My reasoning: a choke takes time to apply to the point where you can actually let go again. If there's more than one attacker, you've got yourself to the point where you either let go to defend against the second attacker or hold on and get hit.

With an armlock, wrist lock, neck lock, etc, you have to option of an instant break and release which should leave most opponents incapacitated, and leaves you free to deal with a second attack. Much quicker and more instantly effective than a choke.

I do attack the windpipe for chokes and let me tell you it takes less then 5 seconds for them to be flapping like a fish. If I really throw it on (ie street situation) they are out of the equation very quickly.

My view is that if you are worried about whether or not you should apply lethal techniques there is no need for you to be fighting.

Tony

 

[Aegis]

I never said I was worried about using lethal techniques. My argument was that a choke isn't damaging enough unless you hold it on for some time, during which you are exposed. The techniques I listed as being quicker included a set of instantly lethal techniques (neck locks) which could be used if you wanted to kill your assailent (though I have no idea when that would ever come up). IMO, the best option would be to break a major joint, like their leading arm, and leave them on the floor when you walk away.

 

[Eggman]

depending on where you live, break a bone and you will go to jail even if it is in self defense. I have used many chokes in self defense situations but only when the opportunity arose. Steve labounty said it best in all manipulations and chokes are movements of opportunity not something to plan. The sleeper can work well and you get the added bonus of having a human shield.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by tmanifold
I do attack the windpipe for chokes and let me tell you it takes less then 5 seconds for them to be flapping like a fish. If I really throw it on (ie street situation) they are out of the equation very quickly.

My view is that if you are worried about whether or not you should apply lethal techniques there is no need for you to be fighting.

Tony

Attacking the windpipe can be very dangerous! The reason they are flapping is due to the fact that you are causing them some pain in addition to the choke. If you do this on the street its one thing, even though you still might have to answer why you used that much force. If you are doing this in training, it only tells me that you dont care about your training partners.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Aegis
I never said I was worried about using lethal techniques. My argument was that a choke isn't damaging enough unless you hold it on for some time, during which you are exposed. The techniques I listed as being quicker included a set of instantly lethal techniques (neck locks) which could be used if you wanted to kill your assailent (though I have no idea when that would ever come up). IMO, the best option would be to break a major joint, like their leading arm, and leave them on the floor when you walk away.

If the choke is properly applied, its shouldnt take much time for them to go out.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by tmanifold
[
My view is that if you are worried about whether or not you should apply lethal techniques there is no need for you to be fighting.

Tony [/B]

Every situation is different. Some may not require you to use lethal force. We live in a very sue happy world. Is this something that you really want to risk?

Looking at your profile it says that you are in the Navy. While the lethal tech. might be fine if you are in Iraq, the situations that you come across in the states are going to be much different.

Mike

 

[SpiritFists936]

it depends, there are many submissions that will quickly change your attackers mind about wanting to fight with you anymore. also you dont want to choke out your drunk buddy that just wont leave you alone, so if you can submit, and control him without injuring him you will be better off.

 

[SpiritFists936]

it depends, there are many submissions that will quickly change your attackers mind about wanting to fight with you anymore. also you dont want to choke out your drunk buddy that just wont leave you alone, so if you can submit, and control him without injuring him you will be better off.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by J-kid
Would anyone use submissions on the street besides chokes.

I would have to think about it even though it would be easy for me to break a arm i wouldnt usally want to unless i have no choice. What about you guys....

Depends on circumstances.

However, something to consider that one of my instructors pointed out:

Some people, you break an elbow and they figure, "Heck, it's already broken and the pain is adding fuel to my fire, so why stop now?" (granted, this will usually only happen with people who're on something - but you never know)

But lock that same elbow and they might do anything they can (including anything you ask) to prevent it from being broken.

Now, knees and ankles are critter of a different color, though. You take them out and you affect their mobility. Then you can pat them down for firearms or knives (maybe use locks/breaks to enable this) and walk away. They won't be able to chase you and if they don't have any firearms or blades they won't be much of a threat to you once you get outside their reach (any other projectiles they may get hold of won't be likely to inflict serious damage).

But, again, it's all situational. When restraining my step-son, for instance, I always avoided injuring him - and he was a full grown man when I was restraining him. I just used locks and pins and, once, a disarm to restrain him until he calmed down (he occasionally had some schizophrenic and paranoid episodes).

When I was attacked by a guy in a convenience store parking lot, though, I dislocated his elbow, kicked him in the chest, and drove away without giving it a second thought (until I was about halfway home and realized that he was probably 16 or 17 and I was, at the time, 20 - fortunately, the cops never showed up at my doorstep).

Mike

 

[chaosomega]

If my attacker doesn't have any friends that will stomp my head in when I try a sub, of course! I'd prefer a choke, tho.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

A bouncer at a college bar applied a choke, and the guy later died from it. All I know the bar got shut down for serving underage drinkers and the bouncer got arrested. Not sure how it turn out. This happen last year.
Bob

 

[Black Bear]

All tactics involve risks to the person whose aggress you're managing. Properly applied chokes (and I mean a bilateral carotid strangle) aren't that risky unless there's a pre-existing medical condition.

Subs in the street can be tricky. It's not that you can't do them fast--you can and you certainly would in the street--but you do get tied up and stuff. So multiple opponents is probably the most germane consideration.

Sometimes your objective is best served by a "submission" or "control". Breaking a major joint or choking into unconsciousness are among the most reliable ways of ending an altercation.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by tmanifold
I do attack the windpipe for chokes and let me tell you it takes less then 5 seconds for them to be flapping like a fish. If I really throw it on (ie street situation) they are out of the equation very quickly.

My view is that if you are worried about whether or not you should apply lethal techniques there is no need for you to be fighting.

Tony

Yes, but when the prosecuting attourney askes you why you chose to kill rather than using a relativly harmless blood choke, and you start blathering on about taking people out of the equation, he will weigh your value of human life against the rest of your life. A Martial artist is expected to show control.
Sean

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Yes, but when the prosecuting attourney askes you why you chose to kill rather than using a relativly harmless blood choke, and you start blathering on about taking people out of the equation, he will weigh your value of human life against the rest of your life. A Martial artist is expected to show control.
Sean

Good point and again it all goes back to the situation that you're facing at the time. IMO, use as much force as whats being used against you and make sure that you can back up everything that you did.

Mike

 

[tshadowchaser]

ok its one on one you put him in a arm, wrist, leg (or choice) lock
he crys or fogiveness and swears he will nwever do it again. Tears flow and he begs for forgiveness.
Do you let him go??
will he get up and attack once there is no pressure on the once locked area?
will he now pull a knife ?