Stomps and Slaps

[Kenpo Mama]

The slaps ar usually involved in checking where the attackers appendages will be, sometimes the slaps are part of trampolining which is when you come off your own body to propell you into the next strike.

Agreed Rob, and MJ too, i recently worked this very theory on the tech Shielding Hammer with my instructor it is great for positional checking and feeds right into the next strike adding power and speed. Good stuff all around!

Donna :ultracool

 

[Doc]

Many of these movements are alignment functions as well as energy management vehicles, as well as a host of other things. The "slap" is a general term that has many subheadings of activity. "Slap-Check" as a term is purely generic. Although there is no real physical principle "marriage of gravity," conceptually it serves the purpose of teaching some students about weight transference.

 

[Brother John]

I always thought that the slapping was more to confuse the attacker than anything, as in they 'hear' twice as many blows landing as are actually falling on them. As far as I know this is supposed to help generate the effect whereby the attacker perceives so many blows landing that they go into a purely defensive mode, which allows you go get your strikes in.

VERY interesting thoughts there Ian!
I'd never really thought about this 'fringe benefit' of it. Just another element for sensory overload (a term I'd heard Mr. Mills use).
Your Brother
John

 

[bluenosekenpo]

I worked a drill on this recently with a friend, and while it may seem funny to actually allow yourself to hit/slap yourself, it is really quite effective and the rebound strike off of your body actually quickens the response and adds power to the strike. It is worth exploring! :asian:

recently i started training with sticks (dog brothers) and what you're describing is a very effective technique borrowed from pikiti tirsia. it may be hard to see with empty hands but you put a stick in that hand and you will appreciate the power behind the rebounding move. For example, a horizontal slash right to left, as the stick starts to decelerate toward your left shoulder you quickly whip(rotate) your hips and shoulders in the opposite direction, bouncing the stick off your shoulder back the way it came. The power generated is just as great as the original slash, and you effectively returned a strike at the half beat. awesome.

you've probably experienced the same thing using the opponents body, for example, chinese sword(tracys). instead of a strong inward block to the right hand punch, then into the handsword to the throat, try a handsword to the radial nerve in the forearm, allow the contact with your opponent to propel your next handsword(bounce) to his neck, allow your hand to pull your body with it. i find this to be a much quicker and more powerful way of performing this technique.

hopefully these examples aren't too simplistic. play with the concept, you will be delighted and impressed with the results. train like a tiger.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

recently i started training with sticks (dog brothers) and what you're describing is a very effective technique borrowed from pikiti tirsia. it may be hard to see with empty hands but you put a stick in that hand and you will appreciate the power behind the rebounding move. For example, a horizontal slash right to left, as the stick starts to decelerate toward your left shoulder you quickly whip(rotate) your hips and shoulders in the opposite direction, bouncing the stick off your shoulder back the way it came. The power generated is just as great as the original slash, and you effectively returned a strike at the half beat. awesome.

you've probably experienced the same thing using the opponents body, for example, chinese sword(tracys). instead of a strong inward block to the right hand punch, then into the handsword to the throat, try a handsword to the radial nerve in the forearm, allow the contact with your opponent to propel your next handsword(bounce) to his neck, allow your hand to pull your body with it. i find this to be a much quicker and more powerful way of performing this technique.

hopefully these examples aren't too simplistic. play with the concept, you will be delighted and impressed with the results. train like a tiger.

Yes exactly! I saw a timing drill where you can use sticks in this very same way on a wavemaster (standing kick/punch pad) It may have been Mr. Mills' drill. It's the same principle and amazing how effective it can be.

Hi Doc... if you tune back in to this. I read the link from Howardr (another great read) and was interested in the idea presented there as to how improper targets on your own body can actually cause self damage with this type of movement. If it's possible can you expound on this at all?

Thanks,
MJ

 

[pete]

for example, chinese sword... try a handsword to the radial nerve in the forearm, allow the contact with your opponent to propel your next handsword(bounce) to his neck

yeah... rebounding shots off opponents targets is great... like two birds with one stone~ however, what's a little suspect is the extent to which slappin' yourself silly enhances your ability to defend yourself. is it a just a multi-sensory parlor trick with more style than substance when demonstrating a move "in the air"?

Perhaps it can be used as a training tool for solo practice, with the careful understanding that self striking is a surrogate for an absentee attacker, but not an integral part of the actual technique execuiton.

i've seen it adversely affect people's execution against a live body. For example, Glancing Spear, where someone i know thought for quite a while that eye strike was supposed to glance off their own forearm rather than attackers arm.

pete.

 

[Rob Broad]

Since the length of time it takes to do a technique is usually under 5 secinds I doubt anyone will slap themselves silly. These slapping strikes aren't for beginner student. They should come into play later in the students evolution. One of the problems we have today is instructors try to give too much information to a student right in the beginning. The instructors sometimes forget how they themselves eveolved and think they whether conciously or not that they can bring there sudents to that level and sometimes miss some oof thw key steps along the way.

 

[pete]

One of the problems we have today is instructors try to give too much information to a student right in the beginning

right on rob! that also goes hand in hand with an instructors ego and sometimes a bad habit of showing off. even with good instruction, a student will have a tendency to try to imitate their instructor.. especially a beginner trying to look cool, before learning the why's and where-for's... which could lead to misunderstandings of basic fundamentals.

in my opinion, most of the self-inflicted slaps tend to occur when a technique is done in the air, without a live body. however, i also notice these same artists running the same techniques in forms without the slap checks or stomps. why is this?

i tend to prefer forms for solo practice, and the techniques (as applications) for partner practice. applications are tough to practice alone, and can sometimes lead to fundemental misunderstandings... to which many of the self inflicted slaps contribute...

pete

 

[bluenosekenpo]

yeah... rebounding shots off opponents targets is great... like two birds with one stone~ however, what's a little suspect is the extent to which slappin' yourself silly enhances your ability to defend yourself. is it a just a multi-sensory parlor trick with more style than substance when demonstrating a move "in the air"?

Perhaps it can be used as a training tool for solo practice, with the careful understanding that self striking is a surrogate for an absentee attacker, but not an integral part of the actual technique execuiton.

i've seen it adversely affect people's execution against a live body. For example, Glancing Spear, where someone i know thought for quite a while that eye strike was supposed to glance off their own forearm rather than attackers arm.

pete.

fair comment, though i don't think anyone is advocating slapping themselves silly, i'll go back to the stick fighting example. imagine, if you will(twilight zone music in the background) that each strike is a single beat..1...1...1...
then you introduce the slap or rebound 1...1.2.1..., this is very effective. not a parlour trick. you've redirected your energy in a totally different direction, broken your rythem, it's unanticipated.

top dog, eric knauss, saw some of the phillipino masters going through this slapping procedure. it baffled him until he realized that you can use parts of your body to imbue new energy to a strike. i wasn't sure, so i tried it myself. hell yeah it works. you try it. maybe you'll see it's value, maybe not. just keep an open mind. regards, train like a tiger

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I posted a comment under the Origin of Alternating Maces piece. Used this a s a PS:

Slapping and Stomping...done right, in the right places and for the right reasons, it's related to a great many things. Like proper structural alignment after stepping back into a neutral bow. Trick is to learn when and where it's appropriate, versus when and where it's just dramatics and noise.

People see an instructor doing someting (i.e., Parker stomping), and imitate without understanding; he also had a reputation amopng those who knew him well for blowing people off who had silly questions:

"Is that just for show, like in professsional wrestling?"
SGMEKP: "Yeah, sure. Why not. That's exactly what it's for." or, "No. It's there to scare the other guy by making a lotta noise" (chuckled quite a bit when I hear this).

Now everybody in certain kenpo downlines stomp, and few know why. Net result is a lot of stomping going on in the wrong places. Doc blew my mind with some simple stuff about properly placed stomps and slaps; as it is his material, it is not my place to divulge it without his permission. I will say it was unlike any kenpo stomping I'd seen before.

When I studies Mr. Parker as an experiment, he would hit himself at various places as he passed them on his way to the next move. Didn't think much of it, but did notice that NOT A SINGLE BLACK BELT IN THE ROOM was doing the same thing he was, or even stopped to ask him if they should/why they might. Turns out some of those self-slaps have an effect of neurologically attenuating synergists, de-activating competing antagonists, and placing a plyometric pre-load on major agonists (pre-stretch leading to more explosive discharge in movement).

Careful not to displace what you don;t understand.

Dave

 

[pete]

neurologically attenuating synergists, de-activating competing antagonists, and placing a plyometric pre-load on major agonists... Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Dr Dave, with all due respect, unless that can be phrased in english that can be understood and applied by martial artists and doctors alike, i'll be filing it as hollywood flash of the tongue.

Careful not to displace what you don;t understand

from our usual agreement in other topics, i trust that you have found value in this. but from my observations much of the slapping is monkey-see, monkey-do, excessive, and to the detriment of good technique.... style over substance... hollywood flash!

i hope you can elaborate on your position, the "Trick is to learn when and where it's appropriate, versus when and where it's just dramatics and noise"

also, if you can, comment on its use in video clips that started this thread...

pete.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Not sure how to do that cool multi-filed quote thing, so pardon my text blocks, hapaharzardly addressing topics.

First, you nailed it on the head with monkey-see/monkey do...it mostly wrong. There are motions of the body that set the stage for the next motion by turning some mucsles on, some off, and setting other in an idle, waiting for activity. Doc likes the slap check, but I'm having a wonderful time with experimenting with body- and posture alignment mechanisms. More on that later, cuz I gotta go to bed soon and want to get out the Hollywood of the tongue thing.

Agonist = the main muscle used to complete a motion. Picking your hand up to your face to pick your nose is a combo of many motions, most of them controlled or driven by the biceps. The biceps brachii has three main functions: flexion at the elbow (like posing for Ahnold), forward flexion at the shoulder (elevating your arm towards a heil-hitler direction) and wrist supination (turning your wrist to look at the palm-side of it, and not the watch). The Biceps is then the Agonist (main player) in raising your hand to pick your nose...you have flexion at the shoulder and elbow, combined with supination. But the biceps is not alone...there are other players...synergists.

Synergists = some buncha other mucles that aide in one or more of these motions. Brachioradialis and brachialis are muscles that aid in flexing the elbow; coracobrachialis helps raise the arm at the shoulder, as does the anterior division of the deltoid; serratus anterior and subscapularis fix the shoulder blade to the ribcage so the whole thing stabilizes to allow the raising of the arm to occur at a fixed point; in exterrnal rotation (really turning your arm so your watch faces the floor, and your palm faces the cieling), some of the chest muscles even help.

Antagonists = any guys on the block that control the opposite motions. Biceps is resisted by triceps; raising the shoulder towards external rotation is antagonized by the latissimus dorsi, which approximates the torso to the upper extremities with internal shoulder rotation (like reaching for a gun, but turning your wristwatch to touch the gun, instead of your palm).

If they play nice together, speed, power, and purposeful coordination result. If they play not nice, a whole spectrum of compromised mechanics results, yielding people fast but not strong; strong but not fast; and anywhere in the middle (including completely uncoordinated).

Note: Not all agonists completely compete! Some tension is necessary in antagonists in order to shape coordination! (hence the part of my phrase, "de-activating competing antagonists").

Now, consider an inward block. Some kenpoka teach sliding it directly off the hip, and to the opposite corner of "the box". Economy of motion, and such. Others teach to **** it back by the same-side ear, and stab at the opposite corner of the box. Still others teach sliding movements, slipping the block cleverly into position. Either way, the end position is much the same: Knife stuck in a block of ice in the far opposite corner from the shoulder of the arm delivering the block (or, sometimes, in front of the face). There is a thing called, simply, positioned resistance muscle testing. In this case, to shove on the block from different directions. Push down on the top of the fist...is it strong from that direction? Pull on it. Press it towards the person holding it. Lean on it from side to side. What is the positional stability of this thing we have hangin in the air?

Generally, a movement that was strong and sound getting to its destination, will remain strong and sound upon arriving there. Muscles are "called to action" by signals from the nervous system, and well after the call, there tends to be an echo...a metaphor meaning that the muscle stays activated at a higher level of residual tension. Just because we need a name, I'm going to take some artistic license and call this state "post-contractile attenuation". The more muscles that come out to play together nicely, the more post-contractile attenuation is in place. The harder for you to shove my block around with muscle testing.

Less muscles, or poorly coordinated timing of recruitment of major and supporting players, leads to crappier positional strength. The trick becomes this: How do we get the most/best muscles to come out to play, while not bringing out guys who will slow the game down? Slaps and stomps.

Doc utilizes a technique called "indexing", which, simply put, consists of 1) identifying positions which place optimal plyometric strain on agonist and synergist muscles, 2) neurologically attenuating synergists and happy/helpful agonists (kinda like revving the engine before letting the clutch out for a chirp) while "turning off" competing antagonists, and 3) moving from one index to another in such a way as to recruit maximal benefit through optimal alignment. But that's his stuff, and it's his place to elaborate or disclose as he will. I'll use a self slap thing and stay with simple biomechasnics & kinesiology/sports physio.

If I'm in a Right sided stance, and plan to throw a right/left/right combo, there will be a time when the right hand returns to my body. I can chamber it, or slap myself with it. Why might I cause myself so much damage? If I do it properly...say, off a returning right backfist, slapping myself on the left pec while the left arm is punching, I set up a couple of neuro mechanisms that will let me coordinate my strength and speed more bettah.

On the return path (bringing the first Right-armed strike back to my body), I'm firing biceps and pec (right side), but in just a coupla smilliseconds, I'm gonna be firing their antagonists...scapular retractors, shoulder abductors & extensors, and elbow extensors. Rather then slowing the whole thing down before letting it land on me, I can let it collide, allowing the inbound tension to die. This lets me get it to my "chambered" position a wee bit quicker, since I'm not bothering to slow it down. Let's make it better: I'll add some force. Any time I really stress an agonist, the antagonist is reflexively attenuated...this means by slapping myself with a biceps/pec contraction, I've already placed a pre-tension in the triceps and outer shoulder muscles...I'm revving the engine, but haven't yet popped the clutch. I can also be using this to signal my own body that, when the right hand slaps the left pec, the left strike stops travelling out...internal cue to avoid minor overextending, which actually steals power, and doesn't add it. And if I miss because I pulled the left back too soon on cue? Isawright...I got the right in the chamber, revved up, ready to pop the clutch.

Plyometrics = that revved up pre-load. Try to jump as far up as you can without bending your knees first. Not very high, eh? Now bend your knees first...that moment before you press off the ground is a pre-contractile load (actually it is a positioned eccentric contraction, in a pre-concentric tension position, blah, blah, ...for verbal economy, it's nicknamed in the field "pre-contractile load"). Up from here, you will generate more force, and jump higher. Now for a really funky experiment. Before you jump as high as you can, jump off of a short stool or box, allowing yourself to lower into a half-squat, THEN leap into the air as high as you can. If you're normal, you should notice quite a difference. Now...just for kicks, set up this plyo preload by jumping off the box, but don't make any noise. Nevermind. You should hear a stomping sort of sound.

This long-winded thing to explain could have been shown in 30 seconds, so sorry for the bleah-thora.

Stomping with the rear-foot stepping back into a neutral bow = hollywood flash and useless noise. Stomping with the lead foot after the rear foot has planted = appropriate timing and placement.

As for stomping in general, Doc had a great example about properly placed stomps setting up proper alignment. He noted that people skip a step or two prior to breaking into a run. This sends a whole buncha messages back and forthe between brain and body about changing attenuation of the muscles throughout the body, setting up proper mechanical alignment of the spine and pelvis to support the activity. You could break into a run without it, but may find yourself feeling awkward until you skip-step to fire off those aligning reflexes. Well-placed slaps and stomps set up reflex mechanisms that aid in power and coordination. Poorly placed ones just make noise.

Unfortunately, you could probably count on 2 peoples hands the number of black belt instructors who know the difference, and even fewer who know they know it, and can intentively impart it.

As for the video clip at the front end of the thread...would have to watch it first.

File it as you will,

D.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

How funny. The anti-swearing auto-edit function asterisked my word for pre-positioning (same as pulling back the hammer on a gun...you ___ the gun).

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Many of these movements are alignment functions as well as energy management vehicles, as well as a host of other things. The "slap" is a general term that has many subheadings of activity. "Slap-Check" as a term is purely generic. Although there is no real physical principle "marriage of gravity," conceptually it serves the purpose of teaching some students about weight transference.

'nuff said. The answer was here the whole time, and in such plain sight that nobody saw it.

D.

 

[Brother John]

right on rob! that also goes hand in hand with an instructors ego and sometimes a bad habit of showing off.

Agree and disagree here Pete.
Many an instructor jumps the gun on how soon to begin teaching more advanced things...but I'm not so sure it can always be chalked up to 'ego'. Sometimes, sure. But I think that often an instructor wants to get their student "on to the good stuff as soon as they can...not realizing that what will make or break their students progress IS the fundamentals.

Mastery is a matter of SOLID basics! The first lessons are the most crucial. Too many see them as something to get past. Too bad really, because all the intermediate and advanced stuff is ...are the basics expounded upon.

Your Brother
John

 

[DavidCC]

Oooooooo after reading that post my Kempo just got a little better...

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Dr. Dave,

This is a fantastic explanation, you have given me so much to think about and analyze. I'm going to print this out along with some of Doc's stuff and file it in my notebook, thanks for taking the time to explain. It is definitely much clearer to me now.

Donna :asian:

 

[pete]

dr. dave,

that was without doubt the best description of the why's and where-for's of slaps and stomps i've ever read. i'm sure is speak on behalf of many readers of this board when i say thank you for the obvious time and effort required to describe such complex material in understandable language.

much of what you've described makes the case for whole body unity and structural alignment, both of which i am in complete agreement. but, is the stomp simply being used as a trigger to encourage the principles of single-weightedness? and are the slap checks neuro-muscular triggers used as a device to develop whole body unity?

if so, there are more modest and traditional methods of developing toward those goals, methods that do not carry the same drawbacks... how good can a method be if only a coupla handfuls of kenpoist really get it, and the rest are just flailing away?

you've got me hooked, but ain't reeling in yet...good work dr. dave!

pete.

 

[Doc]

dr. dave,
much of what you've described makes the case for whole body unity and structural alignment, both of which i am in complete agreement. but, is the stomp simply being used as a trigger to encourage the principles of single-weightedness?

No, not as I understand "single-weightedness."

and are the slap checks neuro-muscular triggers used as a device to develop whole body unity?

No as well.

if so, there are more modest and traditional methods of developing toward those goals, methods that do not carry the same drawbacks...

I was not aware of any drawbacks to this methodology. What are your perceived short comings?

how good can a method be if only a coupla handfuls of kenpoist really get it, and the rest are just flailing away?

The validity of the methodology relative to the number of people "getting it," would seem to be mutually exclusive. It may say many things about what they learned and what was taught to them, and perhaps their true level in the arts. In fact, Parker relayed to me just the opposite philosophy. "If everybody is doing it, it can't be the higher levels." The very nature of mastership and professorship suggest fewer and fewer persons will attain such levels. At one time in kenpo, only Ed Parker knew. The validity was with one person. In my opinion, the fact most didn't understand, didn't "get it," or weren't taught is irrelevant. Perhaps it speaks more to the fact so many claim "grandmaster," "professor," "master," sibok," "sifu," "sensei," "guru", etc with no basis to make such claims with so limited knowledge themselves. But those belts do look nice on them don't they as they are "flailing away?" On that we can definitely agree.

 

[pete]

No, not as I understand "single-weightedness."

i'll trust that you understand the principle as i do... i was actually drawing a correlation to something i've learned as a "dragon stomp", which isn't really a stomp as i've seen in kenpo, and may not have relevance.

I was not aware of any drawbacks to this methodology. What are your perceived short comings?

i've given examples in prior posts, which i'm sure you must have read before replying...

there are more traditional methods for developing counter-resistance for power and stability, and elliptical paths for continuity and quickness. if the slap checks are there to trigger physiological reactions, then i've not had the opportunity to learn them "hands-on"... and as good as some of the posts have been, written words will probably not do it justice.

But those belts do look nice on them don't they as they are "flailing away?" On that we can definitely agree.

unfortunately...

pete