The old Beagles Eak :)

[don bohrer]

Is this old favorite in your sytem? If so... is it the same or slightly different? If taught as an Epak, Tracy, Kenpo off shoot what and how would you teach it. What's important from your systems point of view. Any takers?

Eagles Beak​

Defend against a right shoulder grab. The opponent is at our right and the grab is with his left hand.

1. Our left hand traps and pins the opponents hand to our right shoulder.
2. Step with your left foot away from the opponent into a horse (Straightens the attackers arm).
3. Deliver a verticle middle knuckle strike (thrown like an uppercut) to the nerve between the bicep/tricep.
4. Drive a straight middle knuckle into the opponents arm pit.

Option

After the middle knuckle strike to the armpit.

5. Circle your right arm downward, out, and over the top of your opponents trapped arm.
6. Drop your forearm across his bicep (same motion as a downward verticle hammer fist).
7. On contact with his bicep rake your forearm inward and downward toward your chest.
8. Rebound off your opponents arm with a right sword hand to the side of his throat.

Guard and Cover away from the opponent.

Don (El Paso) :ultracool

 

[pete]

hi don...

i train in an epak system, with the sensibility to retain many of the older techniques (i think they are refered to as chinese kenpo). we do eagle beak just as you've described in the first part, and the way i understand your "extension", it seems that you've grafted in "lever"!

for you "pure" epak guys out there, it would be akin to grafting from clutching feathers to snapping twig after the knuckle shot.

we also do a technique called "wing break" a little later in the system (i think either purple or blue), which adds a takedown by bringing your elbow down to his bicep, continuing the counter clockwise motion locking his arm from underneath, and taking him down by torquing hips and pushing against the tricep... and for fun you can kick him on the way down!

personally, i find the progression of these techniques more suitable for beginners than epak's sword and hammer... since the defender initally steps away from the attacker to create our old friend distance, and applies non-life treatening counters as you identify and evaluate the threat of your attacker. when i teach S&H, which you advance toward the attacker and immediately chop his throat, it always goes with the caveat... "this is a fast technique, and you can kill someone quickly. be sure thats your intent before using it"

good stuff, regardless which system~

pete

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Don: In Rod Martin's Kenpo system the technique (including what you call the extension) is an Purple Belt requirement we call Key to the Sword. Omit the clear and chop and substitute a knife-edge kick to the knee and it is an Orange Belt technique called Striking Key. Rod Martin left Tracy's San Jose school to start his own school in 1964. I think the Tracy guys still do this technique. Not sure of their name though.

 

[Blindside]

My school is a Tracy offshoot, and we do the technique including your "optional" section almost verbatim. The only difference is the strike to the armpit where we use the first two fingers in a supported dart instead of the center-knuckle. It seems to give a bit more penetration, especially if the opponents arm is longer than yours.

If I was an AK student, I would view this as Lone Kimono from the side with an inserted shot to the armpit.

Lamont

 

[don bohrer]

Hi guys,

Pete,
My org was known as Tra-Co in days past and is now a 20 tech system plus extensions. I hear that was shortend from 30+ in the old days. At one time we might have been known as Co-Par or TraCoPar. Not sure if that makes it Chinese Kenpo or not. We do wing break too, but hand placement lower for a hip throw on the take down.

Sword and Hammer? You'll have to write that up for me. It's probably a tech I am familiar with but am having a senior moment on. It almost sounds like inward defense (stepping back) to me or the start of Short 2 (going foward)?

Old Kenpoka,
I guess it's hard to copy-right a good thing. A lot of guys left to do their own thing in those days. I think Kenpo was better for it. Was Mr. Martin's system a 20 or 30+ system? I heard the old 30+ system took forever to get through. Was it you asking for Book Set? I have and old version on tape if you'd like a copy, or perhaps I could upload to MT.

Lamont,
A supported Dart instead of the middle knuckle is a good option for the reach. When I start teaching again I'll have to show that to the younger adults. I have long arms and don't have a reach problem.

I have a few days off work and am away to Silver City tomorrow. Be cool guys.

Don (El Paso)

 

[pete]

Sword and Hammer? You'll have to write that up for me.

as lifted from michael billings site:

10. SWORD AND HAMMER (right flank- left hand shoulder grab)

1. While you are standing naturally, your opponent (standing between 3:00 and 4:00) grabs your right shoulder with his left hand. Step off and to your right with your right foot toward 3:00 into a horse stance, facing 12:00 while striking your opponent's throat with a right upward outward diagonal hand sword. Simultaneous with this action pin your opponent's left hand to your right shoulder with your left hand.
2. As your opponent reacts to your hand sword strike and bends backward, execute a right back hammer fist strike to your opponent's groin as you settle your stance utilizing Gravitational Marriage.

 

[Steve Howard]

Studied Chinese kenpo in a Jay T. Will studio, where Eagle Beak is taught at the Orange Belt (40 techniques/belt since 1968). The technique as you described is taught as variations "B" & "C" in the Jay T. Will curriculum. Variation "A" is an immediate middle-knuckle strike to the armpit (no uppercut), since--if the attacker's arm is already straightened as a reaction to the initial pin and step--the target is unobstructed. Variation "B" (inserted uppercut) is used to further straighten the arm if the initial step and pin combination does not produce an unobstructed path to the desired target (the armpit). ---One of my favorite techniques!

 

[don bohrer]

Just got back from Silver City and had a pretty good time hiking. Nearly killed my brother! A friend and me got crazy and dragged my brother up and down the hiking paths for 7 miles or so. We didn't bring enough water or food. My poor brother thought he was going to the "Upper Room!" :EG:

Pete,
So that's "Sword and Hammer". I don't recall a tech exactly like it but we do a technique called "Intermediate Offense". It and it's variations make can Make "Sword and Hammer". Thanks for reminding me about Mr. Billings site. I will have to visit the site more often.

Mr. Howard,
Forty techs per belt will sure stretch the memory. Would you mind posting a belt chart some time? I would be interesting in seeing what the tech layout is like. What Kata do you guys have in your system?

Thanks Guys.

 

[Rob Broad]

I remeber learning Eagles Beak back in the 80's when I was a beginner. Our school was a Tracy school, but my instructor implememtn many of his own ideas and modificationsinto the techniques 2 levels after you had tested. So we started to play with Eagles Beak at Blue belt. It was the introduction to nerve strikes for us, you are striking Triple Warmer/Heater 12 in the firts strike. I really enjoyed this techniue.

 

[Steve Howard]

Mr. Bohrer,
I never thought that 40 techs per belt was bad---but since that's what I started with, I guess I just didn't know any better (lol). I'll try to get a technique list posted on my website soon. As far as katas, we do:
Blocking Set (Yellow)
Short 1 & Long 1 (Orange)
Short 2 & Long 2 (Purple)
Long 3 (Blue)
Short 3 & Book Set (Green)
Long 4, Staff Set & Standing Finger Set (3rd Brown)
Long 5, Mass Attacks & Moving Finger Set (2nd Brown)
Tiger & Crane, Two-Man Set (Black Belt Set) for 1st Brown
Sword Set 1, Spear Set 1 & Tam Tui (12 Sections) for Shodan.

Thanks,
Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Tiger & Crane, Two-Man Set (Black Belt Set) for 1st Brown

Mr. Howard,
Back when I studied with Jay, we also did a kata called Ling-po (aka Lin Bo, Lim Po, Lian Bu, etc.) for first brown. Has that kata been dropped from the system? Just wondering, as I don't get up to Columbus much anymore.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Back to the topic, I also learned the first variation as Mr. Howard describes. An excellent strike to Heart 1.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Rod Martin taught a 30 technique system + variations for a total of 40 or so per belt.

 

[don bohrer]

you are striking Triple Warmer/Heater 12

In our Eagles Beak the first strike to a nerve is between the bicep/tricep. The second is in the arm pit cavity, and the third is the radial nerve along the forearm?

Would anyone care to expain the nerve strikes found in Eagle's Beak, and how better to activate these points? Are there complimentary nerve strikes that make these points work better? What red flags come to mind when executing this technique. Any insites or observations are welcome.

Rob,
Could you expain the Triple Warmer/Heater a bit.

Eagles Beak again.

Eagles Beak​

1. Our left hand traps and pins the opponents hand to our right shoulder.
2. Step with your left foot away from the opponent into a horse (Straightens the attackers arm).
3. Deliver a verticle middle knuckle strike (thrown like an uppercut) to the nerve between the bicep/tricep.
4. Drive a straight middle knuckle into the opponents arm pit.

After the middle knuckle strike to the armpit.

5. Circle your right arm downward, out, and over the top of your opponents trapped arm.
6. Drop your forearm across his bicep (same motion as a downward verticle hammer fist).
7. On contact with his bicep rake your forearm inward and downward toward your chest.
8. Rebound off your opponents arm with a right sword hand to the side of his throat.

Don (El paso)

 

[distalero]

Consider this: why did your opponent place his hand on your shoulder to begin with? Was it the dreaded One Finger Of Death tap? This technique was practiced for a grab of the right shoulder of your gi (on the street, clothing) with the intent to pull you in and back, so he can punch you down, onto your back. If you practice stepping to your left, you've just done his takedown for him. We instead stepped with the right foot into him, left hand on guard and ready to do slap checks, right elbow in motion up and into his grasp, or over it depending on differences in body size, with a sword hand across the base of his throat. "Second" strike was a back knuckle to the floating rib (drop a little in your horse, although you may have time to be in a neutral bow at this point), THEN you step with the left foot to place yourself in an even lower horse to strike upwads with a hammer fist into his groin, or pubic symphysis, or bladder, or.... I'm sure you have a formal descriptive term for this in AK; sorry I don't know most of them because they came after my time.
Having said this, obviously if the opponent is quick enough (and they always are) he can control your movement for a short period of time by pulling you in and then pushing out, so the key in all this is NOT to step first to the left. The desciptions I read above in the other posts are of the stylized training stances, and the "safe" strikes, and not what was practiced a long time ago, in the stone age.
Thanks for the opportunity.

 

[bzarnett]

Back to the topic, I also learned the first variation as Mr. Howard describes. An excellent strike to Heart 1.

May I ask what your expectations are here in striking Jiquan (Heart 1)?

I agree that the center of the axilla hurts to be struck but I am curious to what additional effects you think it creates that are specific to HT1.

Cheers.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

May I ask what your expectations are here in striking Jiquan (Heart 1)?

Pain. I used Heart 1 to identify the target, nothing more.

 

[ReturningThunder]

some one said by stepping to the left while doing this technique you help the attacker throw you please explain this

 

[Doc]

Consider this: why did your opponent place his hand on your shoulder to begin with? Was it the dreaded One Finger Of Death tap? This technique was practiced for a grab of the right shoulder of your gi (on the street, clothing) with the intent to pull you in and back, so he can punch you down, onto your back. If you practice stepping to your left, you've just done his takedown for him.

I disagree sir. We practice this technique regularly stepping to the left settling into a horse stance and moving us out of the stance is not possible.

We instead stepped with the right foot into him, left hand on guard and ready to do slap checks, right elbow in motion up and into his grasp, or over it depending on differences in body size, with a sword hand across the base of his throat.

For one the assumption is the grab is a close one for momentary control. If he grabs he will be close because he is not afraid. If he were afraid, he wouldn't grab at all and just punch instead. If he is so far away from you you have to step in front of him, you may be moving into a secondary strike with his right hand, and your angle will not be able to stop it.

... Having said this, obviously if the opponent is quick enough (and they always are) he can control your movement for a short period of time by pulling you in and then pushing out,

If he can, than something is being done incorrectly.

so the key in all this is NOT to step first to the left.

Well Ed Parker taught me to step to the left. He made it functional, and so do I. We practice and train techniques very realistically based on how I was taught and the personnel I train regularly who depend upon our methodology on a day-today basis in their regular employment in public law enforcement. May I ask, what is it you do to establish structural integrity significant enough so that your stance is immoveable?

 

[pete]

attacker uses left hand to grab right shoulder...

left pin attackers hand: neutralizes it from being a threat and attaches you to him.
left foot steps left, drop weight into horse stance: centers your balance, extends attackers left arm, checks depth and width... his right fist is no longer a threat.
right palm heel attacks outstretched left arm at elbow: checks height, gets him on his toes, attacker loses his center, right punch is even less of a threat
right middle knuckle to armpit: wide open soft target

now, if you step right to towards the attacker (or slightly in front), he can drop his elbow and prevent you from straightening his arm... so no elbow strike, no dimensional checks, no open target at the armpit.... however, you can do a right wraparound under his tricep to lock him up and regain those checks...but that's another story.

We practice this technique regularly stepping to the left settling into a horse stance and moving us out of the stance is not possible... If he can, than something is being done incorrectly.

aye.

pete.