Four Elements of Leverage

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - Technical Discussion' started by sumdumguy, Jun 29, 2004.

  1. sumdumguy

    sumdumguy Green Belt

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    Ok, I keep reading these posts with people calling this a fulcrum and that a fulcrum in different techniques and self-defense scenarios. I realize that these are not taught as part of the "traditional" AK curriculum. I am really just curious to see what the general concensous is about the different elements of leverage.

    So, Please share with me, and the rest of the MT people what you believe the elements of leverage are and or any additional information you care to share about your working knowledge of leverage?

    (disclaimer) This is not meant as a slight, slam, slander, or insult to anyone or organization, just a simple honest question.
    :asian: :asian:
     
  2. Dark Kenpo Lord

    Dark Kenpo Lord Brown Belt

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  3. jfarnsworth

    jfarnsworth Grandmaster

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    When we discuss leveraging are we discussing how to take an opponent out, or to control or both? My thoughts and yours are probably 2 different things. You have had much more time in the art and teaching than I do. If I were to discuss one point of leveraging that comes to mind is the tech. Circling Destruction. The point in which the left hand palms the attackers chin as the right hand checks at the left scapulae. If done properly my left elbow should be in the middle of his spine and the attacker back on their heels leaning backward. This I would consider a leverage from behind in zone 1. This was the first thing that came to mind hopefully this is what you were looking for. :asian:
     
  4. sumdumguy

    sumdumguy Green Belt

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    Dark Kenpo ????, If I wanted someone elses interpretation of this I would have asked for links to websites. At the risk of loosing the great priviledge of participating in this forum I will keep the other comments to myself.Thanks for playing. :boing2:

    I am simply looking for individual's interpretations and insights into levers and leverage to see what the general populace's understanding of this tool/mechanism is..... I already have all the crap on the link you posted thanks!
    :partyon:
     
  5. Mekugi

    Mekugi Orange Belt

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    Hmmm....that is a tough question. I am not sure I can answer that accurately within the context you are giving (I'm an outsider to these things), but perhaps I can contribute something as a starting point.

    IMHO leverage can simply mean advantage by assistance, or something that gives you that extra help in accomplishing a task. In this sense it is a metaphor. For example, you can tie a rope to an object to pull it up an incline, and while it is not a "lever" technically, it is "leverage in accomplishing a task".
    This is in contrast to a LEVER, which is an actual tool or crude mechanism that uses a fulcrum. When last I checked there were three different types of levers out there, each defined by their fulcrum and the input of force on them. To the best of my memory these were: the "seesaw" type, the "wheelbarrow" type and the "tongs" type. Regardless of their differences, they all use the principle of a lever; the basic mathematic formula of M=F*D or a variation of it.

    Now, when you are talking about kinetics and kinesiology, these general principles can be a little complicated, from what I understand. The same principles apply in terms of mathematics and measures, however there is a completely different discipline based on the study of the physics of the human body because of the variables that do not pop up when dealing with inanimate objects.

    Hope that made sense,

    always,
     
  6. Dark Kenpo Lord

    Dark Kenpo Lord Brown Belt

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    These are your EXACT words. If you would use the TOOL instead of acting like one we might be better off.

    DarK LorD
     
  7. mj-hi-yah

    mj-hi-yah Senior Master

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    I've decided to dodge the bullets :) and attempt to enter this conversation...:goop:

    Since I need to teach this to others, and have limited knowledge of physics myself, I'm interested to see if this makes sense to other kenpo folks or not. In our school we refer to using a fulcrum in some kenpo techniques and here it is as I have come to understand it in one example:

    In the technique Glancing Lance, we use a fulcrum to create leverage against an opponent when we are standing directly behind him, right knee in his spine, and we place the pivot point of our wrist directly at the top of his right shoulder with our right forearm pressing on his right shoulder creating resistance at the point of contact. Our wrist, and I think even the knee, helps to create the resistance giving us greater leverage. We reach our fingers around the side of his face to hook his left eye and pull back on it. The effort is the action of pulling back and increases the force of the eye hook against the resistance of the wrist pressing on the shoulder and the knee in the spine.

    Respectfully,
    MJ :asian:
     
  8. Michael Billings

    Michael Billings Senior Master

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    Nice simple site for me to refer my students to for a graphic illustration not being used on their bodies.

    Thanks,
    -Michael
     
  9. MisterMike

    MisterMike Guest


    You're definitely on to something there. In fact, you'd still have the fulcrum without adding the knee in your description.

    :)
     
  10. mj-hi-yah

    mj-hi-yah Senior Master

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    :cool: Thanks MisterMike! I agree about the knee, my instructor doesn't teach the knee as being part of the mechanism of the fulcrum, but I see it as aiding in providing leverage as the applied force to the spine adds stability for the fulcrum in the move.

    Respectfully,
    MJ :asian:
     
  11. MisterMike

    MisterMike Guest

    Yes. Exactly. The knee also checks their depth, while your forearm lever helps to check width, or keep them from turning into you while you exercise their neck muscles. :)

    Compare this to say...I think it is Thrust into Darkness..no, Escape from Darkness?(been a while since I did Kenpo), where you use your left hand to grab the right shoulder from behind while the right hand snaps the neck.
     
  12. pete

    pete Master Black Belt

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    The application of a lever and fulcrum will allow you to apply force in one direction, and yield a greater amount of force in the opposite direction. the amount of force that is gained is governed by the distance between the source and the fulcrum (or pivot point) vs the distance from the fulcrum to the point where the resulting force is applied. in kenpo, the resulting force can be controlled by the martial artist to restrain an attacker, disturb his center, apply a take-down, or injure him (break bones, dislocate joints, etc).

    in AK, this tool is introduced quite early on techniques like Mace of Aggression (by maintaining contact of the pin and trap into the reverse bow) and Grasp of Death (the take down)... heck, i'd venture to say that every technique employs this tool, either explicitly or more subtley as a potential method of control.

    MJ's example of Glancing Lance is quite good :asian: , in that she's actually identified where 2 levers are employed... one where the wrist fulcrum enhances the force of the finger in the attacker's left eye with the strength of the arm.... and another where the knee fulcrum is leveraging the attackers spine as the lever...


    For sumdumguy... why do feel this topic is not taught within American Kenpo, and how can this in any way be construed as insulting to any group? my experience and exposure, limited as it may be, holds this concept as integral to kenpo... pm me if you feel a response would create disharmony on a public board...


    as a follow-up question, some chinese styles use turning, or coiling, to increase the distance on one side of the fulcrum to magnify the resulting force... similar to gear works. Is anyone familiar with the use of coiling energies in kenpo?

    pete.
     
  13. sumdumguy

    sumdumguy Green Belt

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    This is a description(a good one) of how Leverage works or is applied, not the elements of leverage. I thought it was a fairly simple question? What are the elements of leverage?

    Clyde: Whatever, I was asking for personal interpretations not some article found on the web. allthough, Mr. Billings is correct it will help students that's not what I was looking for. This is what I asked......


    And my point is, by understanding the basic elements of leverage a person can learn to apply it with more proficiency.
    Again, a great example of the way it works, allthough the elements where not used in the correct context.

    I have yet to see or hear anyone in the AK system talk about the elements of leverage, like I said, everyone sais lever this and fulcrum that. Those are only two elements of leverage. (hint hint)
    Because I have the inate ability to offend people with my posts, just a disclaimer to avoid that and get some participation. Other then a certain someone, so far so good.....

    Also the use of leverage, but as part of what is called a "wheel and axle". Yes it is used in the AK system.

    Mekugi: you seem to have a pretty good grasp on it. There are three basic types, referred to as "Class" of lever. Later I will give working examples of these.

    I didn't post this so I could teach you people something, that is not my intent. I am doing some simple research that will reveal itself in time. I do appreciate the participation and the posts......
    Thank You in advance, or in the middle I guess....
    :asian: :asian:
     
  14. kenpo2dabone

    kenpo2dabone Guest

    Well, the definition of Leverage and Fulcrum as they pertain to Kenpo and anything else in physics as I understand it is that you use a fulcrum to gain leverage. The simplest example I can give is the triangular shaped wedge and a pole. place the wedge close to a heavy box and then put the pole over the wedge and under the lip of the box. Pull down on the end of pole and the box lifts up. the closer the wedge is to the box the easier it is to lift. The farther away the wedge is from the box the more difficult it is to lift.

    In Kenpo we typically use fulcrums to gain leverage on an attacker at the attackers joints. For instance when you grab your attackers right wrist with your right hand and place your for arm or wrist against thier elbow it becomes very easy to manipulate them into a bent over postion while the try to releive the pressure that you are exerting against ther elbow. In this case their arm is the lever and your fore arm is the fulcrum and your right hand is applying the pressure. Wel a combination of your right hand and left Fore arm are applying the pressure. The end result is you have affected the attackers highth zone.

    Another example would be in Grasping Talon (left handed grap to your right wrist) when we work against the thumb. This time we sort of do the opposite. The attackers hand is now the fulcrun and our arm is the lever. As we rotate the arm and step forward wtih our right leg we free our wrist by working against the thumd with a fulcrum and a lever.

    Anyway, that is my understanding of fulcrums and levers in Kenpo.

    Salute,
    Mike Miller UKF
     
  15. Mekugi

    Mekugi Orange Belt

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    I think the type of lever that is being discussed was a type one lever, an "effort" based lever, used to gain mechanical advantage over an object. In this case, the fulcrum is also the stress point, and moving a "load" is not necissarily the ends to a means. Since you may not be trying to move the body itself with the lever, but stress the joint, the physics of the lever have now changed. Knowing how many pounds of pressure can it stand before breaking, the stress it can take and the proper angle from which it should be addressed to gain the mechanical advantage in the most efficient manner are now entering on the scene.

    So when you place your arm directly under an outstretched arm at the elbow, and then apply a downward force, the effect will life the body, however what is lifting the body is in fact "pain" and not mechanics.

    In the case where the knee is placed into the back, the fulcrum is yet again the stress point and it is not designed to move a load put to maximize stress at the point of contact.

    Hope that makes sense..


    BTW.....
    http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~pe/exs190web/190kines2.htm
    is an awesome resource for kinesiology.
     
  16. sumdumguy

    sumdumguy Green Belt

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    We now have Three of the four elements of leverage. Fulcrum, Lever, and load. There is one more element, anyone? All of the examples are great for using leverage, which is comprised of four basic elements. That was given away in the title of the post. Whoops, in re-reading this post I noticed that you used the fourth element to define the "type" of lever. They are all effort driven, this is why they are referred to as "class" of lever. Effort is the fourth element. Yeah, now everyone can say how silly or stupid this whole post was............ :partyon:
    But, before that happens, understand how they work, where they work and why they work. And let's get some real simple examples of the uses of the 3 classes of levers. AK has a few easy examples in the yellow belt cirriculum.
    :asian:
     
  17. Mekugi

    Mekugi Orange Belt

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    Actually, you use both a lever and a fulcrum to gain leverage; the fulcrum assists the lever in relation to the point of rotation in relation and to the input of weight on both ends. That is to say, the position of the lever in relation to the position of the fulcrum is the most important aspect of gaining physical advantage. So in a sense, the lever and it's length/space relationship to the fulcrum = leverage.

     
  18. pete

    pete Master Black Belt

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    hey sumdumguy... what's your deal? you say:

    obviously from the insightful responses, more is taught than you may realize...

    well, maybe more regarding the working knowledge as it applies to kenpo than the pedantic elements you were looking for... which makes sense in a martial arts forum (yes, Arts) as opposed to 7th grade science class.

    anyone can say yes or no, but i asked if anyone was familiar with the use of coiling energies in kenpo... if yes, please describe or provide examples.

    the purpose of these boards are to share information, not just collect, or whatever your intent is... and with sharing comes learning. i guess i won't hold my breath for your response.

    huh, the examples were given throughout the thread... glancing lance, escape from darkness, cirlcing destruction mace of aggression, grasp of death, and grasping talon makes 6...so far...

    although your desired response seems silly, i'll reserve judgement until you actually say something... in the meantime, the dialog with Mr Mike, MJ, JFarnsworth, and Mike Miller has been stimulating... thank you all.

    pete.
     
  19. Rainman

    Rainman Guest

    First off- to use leverage in many ways you must understand what kinds of levers there are and how they work... This is old hat on this forum-

    Every single technique has a lever and a fulcrum- EVERY SINGLE ONE so you are not saying anything at all with these examples...

    I am familiar with these chinese properties- I use coiling in two man set right before the pheonix to the eye.

    The desired response is something you know nothing about-

    Lastly- I have not seen you write anything that I would condsider valuable or that I was not aware of ten years ago- So I could say your contributions are equal to zero right? Personally I get nothing form anything you have ever said but that does not mean something you put forth didn't spark an idea for someone else... This is one of my major disagreements with people on forums, some can't follow directions... and then ***** because they don't understand the information... Some people here got it and when this happens you are able to move into the various progressions of the concepts and principles.
     
  20. pete

    pete Master Black Belt

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    whoa... somebody's a little cranky~

    first, some other guy's already said all the techniques employ lever and fulcrum...so you're a bit redundant... the examples that were given help the reader visualize the application.

    lastly, if you don't like my posts... don't read 'em! y'aint paying for 'em...
    and if you find people can't follow direction, don't blame it on the ignorance of the world... look within, and improve your writing skills... communications 101..
     

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