sparring

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by samuelpont, Feb 2, 2005.

  1. DWeidman

    DWeidman Blue Belt

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    Please explain what the advantage is of putting a student under pressure (sparring) who can't do most basics properly by themselves. Do you think they are learning ANY good habits? If so - what?

    -Daniel Weidman
     
  2. r erman

    r erman Green Belt

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    David,

    Good post--and good to see you posting, too. Reminiscent of Buyu Club...

    You bring an interesting perspective as someone who lived and trained in Japan and translated for some japanese shihan for a number of years.

    I enjoyed the quotes form Ellis Amdur and Tim Cartmell.

    Thanks Again,
     
  3. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    You've just admitted the fact that you don't, if you don't think there's any way to get around the strength issue.

    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/muscle.html
     
  4. shinbushi

    shinbushi Green Belt

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    You train one or 2 simple techniques like uke tsuki or osoto gake then training it in an alive environment. I am not talking full sparring from day one but, some aspects can be trained against progressive pressure(As in 10% pressure and build from there). BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai, Sambo, Judo, kali, Wrestling, etc does it very well.
     
  5. shinbushi

    shinbushi Green Belt

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    I never said that there is no way around it I just said beginners whether kata, waza or sparring mistakenly use muscle at the beginning and eventually as their technique, gets better they use less and less. As an instructor that this the main thing I always have to harp on(Even when I taught cooperative training only) is to not use muscle.
     
  6. Shogun

    Shogun Master Black Belt

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    the only issue I have had with sparring, muscle, resistance etc when it comes to Taijutsu movement, is if someone Barrels you to the ground, especially if the someone has trained in Sambo, wrestling, BJJ, or Shooto. The response may come too late. The arguement is that "well....we could gouge eyes and bite and stuff". when someone is on the ground, in control, it is very hard to do that stuff. plus, there is nothing stopping them from doing the same to you. I think "free resonse" training, "active resistance", sparring, randori, etc can fix the reaction time to a response so you dont have to worry about ground fighting. groundfighting is the most popular martial art range in the world right now,,.....and they are not all good people.......
     
  7. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    You can pin someone's arms and legs to the ground, but you won't be able to stop him from moving his hips just as easily. As long as he can move those, there's the possibility of escape. Classic BJJ principle, classic aikido principle, classic taijutsu principle.
     
  8. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    Yack Yack.

    I hear so much about how "Elite" Groundfighting is... Unbeatable...

    (Not from you, Shogun, but you did say groundfighting 4 times in that post)

    I dont buy it. Is it THAT EASY for a guy to Pin Both Arms, Both Legs, the head, and the hips, and still have a weapon to fight you with?

    :idunno:
     
  9. KyleShort

    KyleShort Green Belt

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    Yes it is that easy, sort of...

    The problem is that you can rarely take someone out with one, two or perhaps a few more hits. As such, it is a lot easier for a grappler to get you into a clinch, than for a striker to keep himself out of it (assuming they both want to achieve their respecitve goals). In a grappler's clinch it is very hard to deal traumatic blows....arms are wrapped and neck is controlled or visa versa, head is along side of neck and midsection is concaved to manage knee strikes...from there it is easy to go to the ground. Once on the ground a trained grappler can make it almost impossible for you to strike with any sufficient force, while still able to use their weapons on you...it's all about positioning and locks. In Sambo we train to cause your lungs to sieze up by specific, deliberate application of our weight on our opponent's chest and midsection. That alone WILL render all of your limbs useless while your body and mind automatocally struggle not only for breath, but also to simply regain control of it's respiratory functions.

    Of course BBT contains both striking and grappling, in all ranges. The techniques are there, so it goes back to a question of training methodology...hence the purpose of this thread.

    Side note, my personal martial arts focus is training for battlefield scenarios. If I were confident that I would only ever fight against one person, with no available weapons and no friends on either side, I would probably focus my training on grappling. But since multiple opponents, guns and knives are a reality, I think good footwork and striking skills are more important.
     
  10. KyleShort

    KyleShort Green Belt

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    Daniel,

    I think I posted it previously in this thread...2 years BBT 5th kyu (maybe 6th?)...it has been a while and I never really pay attention to rank.

    In any case if you think that my limited experience makes my either unqualified to comment on BBT, or at least means that I don't yet understand what BBT really is...well...I can't argue that :) I have tried to be very clear that my comments apply only the training I recieved and may be appropriate for those that train in a similar manner. Reading through this thread, and the rest of the threadson this board, it seems as though my dojo was very well representative of BBT dojos around the the US.
     
  11. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    A while ago I had a conversation with a guy who'd been training for about a year and a half, who complained about not having seen defenses against hook punches and round kicks. When I hear things like these I actually get a wee bit scared. Such things have been a natural part of my training for as long as I can remember. I was going to turn this into a long rant about how there are too many people teaching nowadays who still have much training to do before they're ready for that, but I think I'm going to skip that part for now. ;) My point is, that your answers CAN be found within the Bujinkan if you're prepared to look for it. It may even require you to move to another city or even country, but the knowledge IS out there.
     
  12. Shogun

    Shogun Master Black Belt

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    You guys are right, pinning someone, AND having tools to fight with at the same time is pretty much impossible. But I was refering to someone taking you to the ground, into there world, and not having the reflex time (which can be improved by sparring) to stop a takedown, or at least roll it. Sweeping is also a good skill to have. a few of those "elite groundfighting" skills would come in handy. especially if you dont want to maim the person.

    BTW, I said "ground" twice, and "groundfighting" twice.

    I love Taijutsu, but, like any martial art, there is things missing that could come in handy, like sparring, and sweeping.

    Also, there is a ground (wrestling) technique called saturday night ride in which both legs are hooked, the arms are hooked, and the head is, naturally, close to the ground. headbutting from the bottom on a hard surface could be dangerous, and the person on top could headbutt and bite easily.
     
  13. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    I dunno. I still think most people have too much "fear" of being taken to the ground.

    Does it change the fight? Sure. Does it mean you are beat? No.

    Will "sparring" teach you to fight a BJJ guy?

    Doubtful.
     
  14. r erman

    r erman Green Belt

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    I think it's already been established that sparring is not necessarily exluded from taijutsu--some do and some don't.

    What do you mean by 'sweeping'?

    Most people fear it because they are not used to it, or have no skill in dealing with attacks on or from the ground.

    Most people who are not afraid of newaza are harder to knock off of their feet.
     
  15. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    Erm... Newaza? Sorry... I dont know the term, could you dumb that down for me?

    Thanks!
     
  16. r erman

    r erman Green Belt

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    ne waza has become a general term for groundfighting--although I believe in it's original context it was similar to kime waza...
     
  17. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    Ah, ok, thanks!

    :asian:
     
  18. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    Yeah right. If you haven't seen it, then it must be missing, no:uhyeah: ?
     
  19. Shogun

    Shogun Master Black Belt

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    Sweeping is term used in BJJ. used for "sweeping" the opponent into another position, usually off the top of you.

    Another complaint about Taijutsu I have, is that everything may exist in it, but it takes like 40 years to get to that one technique. I at least want to be exposed to it, even if by video.
     
  20. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    Go train with someone else. It'll all be fine once you feel at home.123
     

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