sparring

[Cryozombie]

So.... pick the element we are Masters of. What are we the best in?

Deceptive fighting?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

A popular strategy among MMA enthusiasts is to "take the fight". meaning, you dont have to be fighting, and they will still be doing so.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html#bladefighting

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I carried a Keen Edge Pukulan trainer in a "clinch pick" or boot style carry and as able to get to it more often than I had thought.
Oh, you want to know WHEN I practiced this? During the grappling sparring sessions at my dojo, of course.

3, 4 and 5 is what I agree most with. To be frank, I have no clue as to what you're getting at with number 6.

I will point out that I'm of the opinion that women especially should know how to deal with an attacker armed with a knife who is interested in a ground "fight". This is an all too common self defense situation.

From what I've read, weapons are extremely uncommon in rape attacks, and when used the perpetrator more often than not has no intention of actually using them.

 

[rutherford]

Deceptive fighting?

Survival of combat situations?

 

[rutherford]

I carried a Keen Edge Pukulan trainer in a "clinch pick" or boot style carry and as able to get to it more often than I had thought.
Oh, you want to know WHEN I practiced this? During the grappling sparring sessions at my dojo, of course.

Nice. The aluminum blade, right? Did you most often end up with it in a forward grip edge up? By "clinch pick" style carry, do you mean on the weak side, just above your pocket?

Now, how are you using the word Sparring?

3, 4 and 5 is what I agree most with. To be frank, I have no clue as to what you're getting at with number 6.

3 is where I disagree most, although I think the word "could" is deceptive. I think it's important to expose yourself to lots of situations. Trying to rely on methods that you don't know well is folly, as DWeidman points out recently. So, while I wouldn't try to fight like a boxer, especially against a boxer, I think it's still important to train with a boxer and understand what tools they use.

(I didn't use grappler in my last example, because that's actually where I'm most skilled. I came back into the thread because I really enjoy the clinch and will roll with anybody anywhere.)

For number 6, I was getting at the fact that you might not have a knife, or there might not be one available. If there is - great. I know it's probably almost insulting for me to say "don't count on it" to you, but it might be helpful to somebody reading the thread. Please take my "you" as the general you and not the particular.

If you're in an open guard, or similar position you should be able to draw a bootknife. But there are lots of positions where you're not going to have time or the ability.

I wouldn't get caught up on the idea "pull my knife" in a grappling situation. Take the oppertunity if presented, and train to know when there's an oppertunity and when you're in serious trouble. And when the best option is just to scoop up a handful of gravel or rock as Nagato-sensei suggests.

And, yes, I recognize that this is a strength of our training.

From what I've read, weapons are extremely uncommon in rape attacks, and when used the perpetrator more often than not has no intention of actually using them.

2000 "Victim, Incident, and Offender Characteristics," published by the National Center for Juvenile Justice (NCJJ)

A personal weapon (hands, feet, or fists) was used in 77% of cases. No weapon was noted in 14% of assaults; other weapons (knifes, clubs, etc.) were used in 6% of cases. Firearms were involved in only 2% of assaults.

Anecdotally, I've personally listened to several first-hand victims' accounts that involved knives. So, maybe I stress on that issue.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Not going to argue with you on the rape thing because I admit I haven't done my homework on that matter. Just what I've heard. Still, I doubt most rapists are so persistent so as to actually use lethal force.

Nice. The aluminum blade, right? Did you most often end up with it in a forward grip edge up?

Forward grip edge down, since the Pukulan is sharpened on the "right" side, while being similar in shape to the clinch pick.

By "clinch pick" style carry, do you mean on the weak side, just above your pocket?

If my gi pants had had pockets, yes.

Now, how are you using the word Sparring?

Come again?

So, while I wouldn't try to fight like a boxer, especially against a boxer, I think it's still important to train with a boxer and understand what tools they use.

There is a difference between understanding the tactics of others and trying to compensate for what one perceives is lacking in the Bujinkan.

For number 6, I was getting at the fact that you might not have a knife, or there might not be one available.

So? If you've looked down a little on the Animal page I posted, he writes "never try to anticipate your opponents based on what you are and aren't capable of". The problem with knives is that you rarely know whom it is who has them until it's too late...

I wouldn't get caught up on the idea "pull my knife" in a grappling situation.

I wouldn't either, but there are people who would.

Take the oppertunity if presented, and train to know when there's an oppertunity and when you're in serious trouble. And when the best option is just to scoop up a handful of gravel or rock as Nagato-sensei suggests.

You know it's funny that he and the rest of the ol' boys never seem to complain about this or that lacking within the Bujinkan...

 

[rutherford]

Come again?

Well, it's the most relevant section of our discussion. You were doing grappling sparring with a training knife. What was the intensity level like? Were you "training hard" or "testing your skills"?

There is a difference between understanding the tactics of others and trying to compensate for what one perceives is lacking in the Bujinkan.

. . .

You know it's funny that he and the rest of the ol' boys never seem to complain about this or that lacking within the Bujinkan...

You sure won't here me talking about things missing. I expect that Bujinkan training is going to be like drinking from a firehose for a long time for me.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

You were doing grappling sparring with a training knife. What was the intensity level like? Were you "training hard" or "testing your skills"?

As our instructor likes to say, "if you're given a headbutt, eye gouge or groin shot, give one in return"...:asian:
We do that from time to time before or after training. Same thing with putting on gloves and going at it, sometimes with shinai as well. But we always take it for what it is. No closer to reality than anything else.
And I didn't tell anyone about me packing a knife either...

You sure won't here me talking about things missing. I expect that Bujinkan training is going to be like drinking from a firehose for a long time for me.

Oookay, I think I have misunderstood something here, because I was under the impression that you feel there is something lacking with Bujinkan training in general...?

 

[rutherford]

Oookay, I think I have misunderstood something here, because I was under the impression that you feel there is something lacking with Bujinkan training in general...?

Not in the least.

I really enjoy Bujinkan training, or at least the little I've seen of it.

As for whether it's the best possible way to train, I have no opinion. In this thread, I've tried to stick to topics where I have at least a good understanding and I freely admit that I know little about how Bujinkan dojos train, and I get the strong feeling that there's a wide variety.

 

[DWeidman]

...about how Bujinkan dojos train, and I get the strong feeling that there's a wide variety.

Yeah. Like Grand Canyon wide...

-Daniel

 

[Cryozombie]

Nagato Sensei on Groundfighting:

http://www.budotech.com/jvm/nagato2.shtml

 

[KyleShort]

I almost feel like that article reincforces what I was saying...

"ten minutes of having them roll around tiring themselves out with strength"

I hate this sterotype...that may be what those students were doing but I hope that is not what most people believe. Remember jujutsu, judo, taijutsu...these are all yielding arts...if you are muscling around on the ground then you are not groundfighting in the style of the "ju" arts, or Sambo for that matter. It seems that Nagato assocaites ground fighting with exhausting yourself? The funny thing is that he goes on to show that you can do other things on the ground...but that is still ground fighting, just a different style of it...

Now an interesting observation is that Nagato was demonstrating this to some senior students...the idea that you can still be in kamae on the ground, that you can still kick, pinch and grab...this was news to them? Why? I thought they were senior students in japan? Perhaps they have limited experience abstracting their kata training to ground work? Randori, including ground work (even at 10% of speed and power for safety), would give them experience they need to understand how techniques can be dynamically applied and adjusted wherever you are.

Nagato also states that you will never out grapple a ground fighter if he has more training experience than you (read sparring). But he also makes the very valid assertion that you you should take people out of their game, don't play into their strengths...

...I 100% agree. However there are still two problems with that logic. First, sometimes you have to play their game because they are simply better than you. As much as you might want to play your game, they shut you down.

Second, and this will be a sore point of contention for most involved, grappling is primarily designed to negate your striking. By continuing to play your game on the ground, your are actually playing into their game. A good grappler is trained in both 'riding' and 'submitting'. The goal of these two skills is to imobolize or limit the use of your attacking limbs, while affording the grappler the opportunity strike or break you. BBT does not specialize in applying striking and grappling skills on the ground, and in fact spends the majority of training time standing up (and taking down). To be successful on the ground you must practice on the ground, and not just your game, but theirs too.

 

[DWeidman]

...I 100% agree. However there are still two problems with that logic. First, sometimes you have to play their game because they are simply better than you. As much as you might want to play your game, they shut you down.

Do you realize how inane this sounds? So you are advocating sparring and groundfighting so if you meet a much better fighter than you who has specific skills on the ground (and trains thousands of hours on the ground) - - - you can do what?

If he is better than you are - and he can force you to play his game.... well - then you lose. Or die.

And no amount of "rolling" or "sparring" is going to fix that.

-Daniel Weidman

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I hate this sterotype...that may be what those students were doing but I hope that is not what most people believe. Remember jujutsu, judo, taijutsu...these are all yielding arts...if you are muscling around on the ground then you are not groundfighting in the style of the "ju" arts, or Sambo for that matter.

Don't know about sambo, but I lost my faith in judo and most modern jujutsu styles as pertaining to this matter a long time ago...

It seems that Nagato assocaites ground fighting with exhausting yourself?

Don't tell me you don't find grappling to be a physically demanding endeavour...?

The funny thing is that he goes on to show that you can do other things on the ground...but that is still ground fighting, just a different style of it...

http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/psp%20-%20gun%20grappling.pdf

Now an interesting observation is that Nagato was demonstrating this to some senior students...the idea that you can still be in kamae on the ground, that you can still kick, pinch and grab...this was news to them? Why? I thought they were senior students in japan? Perhaps they have limited experience abstracting their kata training to ground work?

Probably, but that's another discussion.

Randori, including ground work (even at 10% of speed and power for safety), would give them experience they need to understand how techniques can be dynamically applied and adjusted wherever you are.

Nope, not without sufficient technical expertise.

Nagato also states that you will never out grapple a ground fighter if he has more training experience than you (read sparring). But he also makes the very valid assertion that you you should take people out of their game, don't play into their strengths...
...I 100% agree. However there are still two problems with that logic. First, sometimes you have to play their game because they are simply better than you. As much as you might want to play your game, they shut you down.

This is a type of defeatism that assumes you aren't able to make the best out of your existing skills and possibilities.

Second, and this will be a sore point of contention for most involved, grappling is primarily designed to negate your striking.

True, but this isn't as easily done with something that only has to touch you to cause damage...

BBT does not specialize in applying striking and grappling skills on the ground, and in fact spends the majority of training time standing up (and taking down). To be successful on the ground you must practice on the ground, and not just your game, but theirs too.

We simply make a choice. And a pretty damn good one, if you ask me - to prevent that scenario from ever occurring as good as we can. You're still trying to get around the fact that you can't beat someone in a game in which he's the more skilled player.

 

[Cryozombie]

True, but this isn't as easily done with something that only has to touch you to cause damage...

Explain please? What do you mean here?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Well, since I've already brought up ShivWorks, this should give you an idea...

http://www.shivworks.com/clinchpick.asp

 

[Cryozombie]

Ah, I see what you are saying now.

 

[KyleShort]

Daniel, all I can say is wow.

Nim,

I understand what you are saying about "ju". Sadly yes, most practitioners to do not adhere to the original tenants of their arts. Hell it was ground ground training in the bujinkan that showed me what yielding in ground work really meant. But alass I would argue that modern groundfighters rely too much on strength...being good doesn't mean being technically skilled at ground fighting for them.

All forms of fighting are physically demmanding. The full contact weapon fighting that I do in escrima is just as demmanding...but Nagato's description implied that all they did was roll around and exhaust themselves...there is more too it than that...so though it may be true of those fighters, I am leary of that sterotype in general,

Yeah, blades are very dangerous on the ground =)

I am not sure how I am trying to get around anything...I am a stand up fighter too...I train in Sambo only as a semi-occasional supliment to my regular training. Actually the whole point that I was making is that you cannot expect yourself to be good on the ground without training on the ground, and I argue that no ammount of ground training is complete without randori of some form...but of course that is simply my opinion =)

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

...but Nagato's description implied that all they did was roll around and exhaust themselves...there is more too it than that...so though it may be true of those fighters, I am leary of that sterotype in general,

I still see a clear problem in incorporating types of training in the Bujinkan that are built around the issue of weight classes...

 

[DWeidman]

Daniel, all I can say is wow.

Wow? Do you disagree with what I wrote and if so - how?

-Daniel