sparring

[samuelpont]

I did ninpo ninjitsu for three years and left somewhat dis illusioned with the art.I think the art is beautiful and has the capacity to be great but for one thing, sparring. We never tested our grappling skills in randori such as in judo, or our striking skills in free sparring. I understand that some of the techniques are to dangerous to be performed but a good solid randori and ground session would be envaluable tool for teaching students about real combat and how exhausting it can be. It would also improve students fitness and their capacity to deal with combat.

I`m sure when ninjitsu was practised in the past it used to be on a sparring basis and has been watered down for western consumption, it is a great shame as i love the culture that goes with ninjitsu something that in my training (vale tudo) is not present.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Unlike ninjutsu, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is tested daily around the world.

That the sparring part has been downplayed a bit is mainly because of the fact that it was a breeding ground for bad habits. This art is far from watered down.

And as for exhaustion - fights may last a while, combat scenarios and self defense situations are usually over rather quickly.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

... it is the song that never ends ...

... it goes on and on my friends ...

...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Yep, still the same old story, sparring for love and glory...:wink2:And nobody seems to be getting any wiser, no?:wavey:

 

[samuelpont]

just wondering how you mean it its tested daily around the world? do you mean you do or you don`t spar?
I`ve been in countless real situations and it is true that if your fighting one person the fight is generally (hopefully!) over in a minute and sometimes much less if your lucky. However that minute of fighting IS exhausting, and not only that if fighting more than one opponent which is fairly comonplace the likely hood of anyone dispatching say three or even two opponents in undewr a minute is most unlikely, some fights that I have been in have lasted well up to the five minute mark at which point I have been exhausted, but my training on the mat has seen me through.
Also how do you mean `bad habits` do judoka learn `bad habits` from sparring I would hazard a guess as no.
And as for glory, its an empty purse, eat it and go hungry seek it and go mad.

 

[Bujin]

Also how do you mean `bad habits` do judoka learn `bad habits` from sparring I would hazard a guess as no.

Many of us traditionalists believe the answer to that question is: yes, they do learn bad habits.
Ponder this, in modern sports judo striking and kicking is not allowed. What would the consequences be in a real fight!? One punch is sometimes all it takes...

Regards / Bujin

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

just wondering how you mean it its tested daily around the world? do you mean you do or you don`t spar?

I meant exactly what I said.

I`ve been in countless real situations and it is true that if your fighting one person the fight is generally (hopefully!) over in a minute and sometimes much less if your lucky.
However that minute of fighting IS exhausting, and not only that if fighting more than one opponent which is fairly comonplace the likely hood of anyone dispatching say three or even two opponents in undewr a minute is most unlikely, some fights that I have been in have lasted well up to the five minute mark at which point I have been exhausted, but my training on the mat has seen me through.

Exactly, and the key word here is fighting. We don't train to fight. We train to end violent confrontations, and, hopefully, prevent them before they ever take place. Good site explaining what I'm talking about:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/fight_selfdefense.html

 

[samuelpont]

do you think then judoka would be as good if they did not spar, for instance if one who sparred 30% of his training time fought one who never sparred but practised technique and both were of the same stamina levels and heart etc, which one do you believe would win?

Indeed one punch is all it can take unfortunately this is so rarely the case in the heat of combat when things aren`t predestined. I believe you must train in all ranges kicking striking grappling and submission and your own will to win. But this all comes together in the free sparring where you see people put together techniques they have learned and progressively learn to adapt them to fit the situation.

 

[samuelpont]

yes the key is to end the fight. Do you really think anyone wishes a fight to go on longer than it has to! I certainly don`t and try to put an end to any said attacker quickly and if possible (depending on the threat level) with as little harm to them as possible

 

[samuelpont]

I meant exactly what I said.

So thats a no then. Your talking about people attempting to use the art in self defence.. not much real documented evidence I think

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

do you think then judoka would be as good if they did not spar, for instance if one who sparred 30% of his training time fought one who never sparred but practised technique and both were of the same stamina levels and heart etc, which one do you believe would win?

I believe the judoka would win in a judo match. That, after all, is what he had trained for. *hint hint*

Indeed one punch is all it can take unfortunately this is so rarely the case in the heat of combat when things aren`t predestined. I believe you must train in all ranges kicking striking grappling and submission and your own will to win. But this all comes together in the free sparring where you see people put together techniques they have learned and progressively learn to adapt them to fit the situation.

Thing is, those ranges are much, much different from each other when, for instance:

a) you fight a trained fighter under mutually agreed upon rules

b) your drunken friend is out of control at a party and you need to restrain him without damage

b) you're being assaulted/ambushed by someone genuinely intending to harm you seriously, who by the way probably doesn't know you practice martial arts

c) you're in a combat situation with fear for your life, usually with weapons involved.

Etc etc.

By the way, "no" wasn't what I said. I said that sparring isn't done to a very large extent, pretty much because there are other things we need to concentrate on that will serve us better in the long run.
And I didn't say "attempted" either. "Do, or do not. There is no try." :asian:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

yes the key is to end the fight. Do you really think anyone wishes a fight to go on longer than it has to! I certainly don`t and try to put an end to any said attacker quickly and if possible (depending on the threat level) with as little harm to them as possible

You're still using that f-word...:idunno:

 

[samuelpont]

You're still using that f-word...:idunno:

yep because thats the ugly truth of it is a fight. if you would prefer to call it a confrontation so be it.

 

[samuelpont]

I believe the judoka would win in a judo match. That, after all, is what he had trained for. *hint hint*
yes but which one do you think would win?

 

[samuelpont]

I believe the judoka would win in a judo match. That, after all, is what he had trained for. *hint hint*

Thing is, those ranges are much, much different from each other when, for instance:

a) you fight a trained fighter under mutually agreed upon rules

b) your drunken friend is out of control at a party and you need to restrain him without damage

b) you're being assaulted/ambushed by someone genuinely intending to harm you seriously, who by the way probably doesn't know you practice martial arts

c) you're in a combat situation with fear for your life, usually with weapons involved.

thats why i prefer to test my metal against other opponents , do you think in the past old ninja schools would have done this, do you think they now these ancestors frown from afar of how soft the art has become?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

You obviously missed the link to Animal's webpage I wrote down. Fighting, self defense and combat are NOT synonymous. Fighting, like sparring, is a give-and-take situation.

As for who'd win IRL? I dunno...the one with the largest number of friends, perhaps? No way you could know for sure.

Yes, I do agree that Toda, Takamatsu and the rest of the ol' boys would probably be rotating in their graves if they knew about some of the more embarrassing moments of present-day Bujinkan, same thing probably if you told their predecessors that this is nowadays being taught to westerners.
Of course, you're not suggesting that the training necessary for today is identical with that of the Sengoku Jidai, right? And who said that there is nothing but softness in the Bujinkan? How many people did you train with, again?

 

[Bujingodai]

comparing art to art is useless, it is the combatent that makes the result. To assume that a Judoka would only win in a sparring sense is also assinine.
One would be pretty bold to assume that Ninjutsu or BBT would win in any situation. A fight is a fight, it is not a competition. There is little give and take in a fight. If that fight lasts your screwed if you are not conditioned in the slightest. I would agree that sparring develops some nasty habits and that true combative technique cannot be employed in that way. This is where you see the thrush of Ninjutsu schools with busted up people when someone learns something effective and wishes to teach it like a master.
However it is silly to state that BBT is not watered down. Anyone of the seniors will say that it is softer than it was. At least it is in N America.

As for the statement that BBT is tested everyday but Ninjutsu is not is also making me ponder. What do you mean by that statement other than things that make you go hmmm. Please do not answer with "just that" How is Taijustu tested everyday. Is this is a physical or mental context?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

However it is silly to state that BBT is not watered down. Anyone of the seniors will say that it is softer than it was. At least it is in N America.

North America is not representative for the Bujinkan as a whole, if I've understood things correctly (no one ever told me that was the case anyhow). That training is generally isn't as gruesome as it was in Japan in the 70's, doesn't necessarily that the skill the Bujinkan has to impart to its practicioners isn't there anymore, does it?

As for the statement that BBT is tested everyday but Ninjutsu is not is also making me ponder. What do you mean by that statement other than things that make you go hmmm. Please do not answer with "just that" How is Taijustu tested everyday. Is this is a physical or mental context?

Well, first off, very few people are knowledgeable about ninjutsu, as opposed to taijutsu and bukiwaza.
I'm sure I'm not the only person here who has had it verified by others that their taijutsu skills came into use during real life situations?

 

[samuelpont]

You obviously missed the link to Animal's webpage I wrote down. Fighting, self defense and combat are NOT synonymous. Fighting, like sparring, is a give-and-take situation.

fighting is not a give and take situation I think you are misinterperating what i`ve said, i`m talking about real situations that occur on the street or for that matter any location.Both parties attempt to impose there will and one wins be it through greater will to win, heart, strength conditioning what ever it may be, i`ve seen it for real countless times and as much as you`d like to think you could end all situations with one blow or choke it doesn`t always pan out that way, and sparring helps develop the will to continue through the exhaustion and mental fatigue to make the likely out come much more favourable.
Does a kendo practioner only practise cutting exercises alone.
Does a judoka only practise technique.
Do the military in any country teaching unarmed defence not practise armed and unarmed defence in sparring type situations.
In the past did the samurai only practise techinque
Did the gung fu practioners in the past days only work on the wooden dummy
Does the boxer just train on the bag,

The answer is no my friend

you can practise your swimming stroke on dry land....... but until you actually get into the water and train you won`t improve and you won`t understand what its really like

 

[Bujingodai]

I get your point about the BBT being tested. I just wanted clarifcation on the point. I appreciate it.
I think that some of the aspects of Ninjutsu are tested each day as well mind you. if think of using elements of strategy in business and such. Just a way of looking at that.
As for the watering down etc etc. OK I see your point there. That is true just because it is less violent doesn't always mean you're learning less.

Thanks