Sharing a little knowledge.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by JowGaWolf, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I thought I would share a small conversation about a Jow Ga application. So the Jow Ga Technique is this first one shown in this video below without the elbow. There's a lot of variety in this technique It has 3 parts but numerous applications.


    The video below isn't really a lesson. It's more about me sharing some sparring experience and using one of the basic techniques that beginners use. The funny part is that it's a beginner's technique but I had to eat a lot of punches to figure out the application, how to use it, when to use it, when to break it apart and when to use it as it's used in the form.


    There's a lot more that goes into making it work than what you see here, but it should give a decent idea of how practical it is. Enjoy.
     
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  2. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

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    Wow... thanks for posting this.
    its amazing how much overlap from this video JowGa shares with old karate.
    this was a real treat.
     
  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I'm glad you enjoyed it. The Jow Ga schools teach this technique from a distance, like in the first video, the "red" guy's punch is never going to reach his opponents face (0:14). This is the incorrect distance for this technique. The other problem is that using techniques at the end of a punch is never going to happen. In reality (I believe this is for all martial arts), a punch that has been extended is one that has hit you in the face or on the guard. So at this point martial artists have already trained 2 bad habits
    1. incorrect distance
    2. incorrect timing.
    I think this is often the fault of the teachers being laser focused on teaching a technique and the concept of the application and not the actual concept. I also think teaching for Defending - Reply instead of Attack - Defend contributes to it. After a while it's either never corrected or it's not corrected until a student has become more advanced and the teacher feels that the student isn't going to abuse the fighting skills.

    Looking at the first video again at (0:19) You can see that the range of the technique is now closer in application. It redirects the first punch before it's fully extended. (have to play the video slower).

    The other thing is that seeing the first punch is difficult, but becomes easier if you can trigger it. Pulling on a person's guard is most likely to trigger a punch. It's like a slot machine that always gives money. So I pull on the guard I get a punch. You can actually see it here.

    My first attack is a real attack. Had my opponent been in ranged I would have gone for the hit. But because he was out of range I use it to distract and hide what I was really looking for. Which is why I say after my first punch I knew what I was was available.


    Below uses a similar of attacking with a technique vs trying to wait for the "right punch" to come. So here you can see. That I'm wide open. "Punch that dude in the red in the face" lol. Light him up. But what you can also see I have already made contact. This is where I'll trigger that punch

    I pull on the guard mainly because I don't want to get hit with that fist. If I can control the guard then I can force him to punch with the other hand. The pull on the guard is a "sensitive" (probably wrong word) approach. What I'm trying to feel is him trying to move that lead hand towards me, When he does I'll pull it in a direction that creates "awkwardness" for him.
    upload_2019-10-3_7-1-51.png

    But back to triggering the punch. At this point
    • I know where the punch is coming from,
    • I know when the punch is coming because I'm the one triggering his reply instead of him triggering my reply
    • I know that I have a head start into my attack.
    It took me a while to really understand this enough to work it in application. I think if martial artists in general would just step in closer when training striking application, that a new level of understanding would open up for them. Unfortunately, the Price is that you have to be willing to eat a few punches. So don't spar hard.
     
  4. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    This would all look much different if the other guy had a clue.

    You should consider sparring outside of your student base/style for more accurate assessment of what works and what doesn't.

    It seems to me someone with hands would catch you alot while you are being all telagraphy like this.
     
  5. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    I dont want to be critical as I enjoy your vids and you have the courage to out them up for comment.
    BUT

    the first one is dependent on the guy standing there with his arms out stretched no higher than shoulder height and that's not a likely position for any one who can fight. it really isn't, someone who is trained will have them high around the head and someone who isn't will try to punch from the waist. ( or katare punch you from the shoulder) no one is holding their arms out two feet away from their body for you to trap whilst staying out of range.

    the second one is a different proposition, clearly you have past the resistant partner stage, but rather than showing of the effectiveness of your technique, I'd be more concerned about the lack of anticipation and movement of the student. he is standing there and letting you hit him, like a rabbit in the head lights, he shouldnt be getting caught with wild telegraphed punches like that. its traveled four feet by the time its hit him, your wide open, he should knock you over with that much time and space or at the very least retreat out of range or even move his head have his guard up to block, anything really but stand their like a tailors dummy
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
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  6. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    I think a big part of this is the reluctance of people to hit and be hit. If my partner is not going to really hit me in the mouth... I will never develop the technique that stops it. If I am so afraid of being hit in the mouth, I won't stay in the pocket to develop my technique. Correcting the other guy on his lack of control, is easier than getting hit.

    When I work with black belts, and we are being taught a defense from a punch... quite often I get the feeling that they are not intending to hit me. This makes me question my awesomely smooth and effective technique. So, on one of the repetitions, without informing the other guy, I just let him hit me. About 80% of the time, I feel like a Jedi from star wars... as I watch the punch go 8 inches to the left or right of my head or even stop 8 inches away. Which means that whatever dance step I was doing... it "worked." Until someone really tries to hit me that is. Many times it even takes a few tries for the other guy to actually hit me, even at a black belt level. The other thing I find amazing is that my awesomely smooth and effective technique... actually is not anywhere near as good as I thought it was. But, by working with honest punches, I can get better at the technique.

    Many people train martial arts, with out actually learning how to hit someone. And they don't realize it. They can train years without realizing that they can't hit someone. They can do the mechanical movements and yell and break boards and hit bags... but hitting another person, they can't do it. Even if they think they can. (point sparring doesn't count as hitting for this point...) Think about what happens in most schools when one guy make contact with his punch during these type of drills. The most common response is "Oh! I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to hit you." And thats my point. If my partner is supposed to be working on a punch defense, then I intend to punch him. If I hit him, he did the technique wrong. (I don't intend to knock him out, or hurt him... just hit the intended target with enough force to effect the other guy, and it doesn't mean that I throw full speed either... I work at a level where the other guy can study his technique... but he is always getting hit) I check if he is okay, then we work on why he got hit.

    If you train in a school where you never get hit, by an instructor who trained and never got hit... how are you supposed to know how to make your stuff work when people actually try to hit you?
     
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  7. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Or - and bear with me on this - the other person doesn't want to hit you, so when they see you're not blocking the technique, they throw it off to the side so they don't hit you.

    I've had people miss blocks and I've never hit them. It's not because my punch is inaccurate, it's because when I know I'm going to hit them, I abort the punch.
     
  8. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    And thus you develop the habit/muscle memory to always pull or intentionally misdirect your strikes, and the other guy never learns to take a hit or how to deal with strikes that come in naturally on line with follow through.

    I'm not convinced this would be beneficial.
     
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  9. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    No, I'm left with the good of not giving my partners concussions.
     
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  10. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    Then I don't want to train with that person. If my partner is not giving me an honest punch to deal with, that intends to hit me... then I am not able to train correctly. I want to train with, and seek out training partners and schools, who intend to hit you when they throw their punch. That gives me the best opportunity to train and study my technique.

    This initially sounds like a good thing. Except that the bad guy will hit them. You are giving the other guy a false sense of security. Sure, he knows he did the technique wrong, but its not like he got hit because of it... it wasn't so bad... And as pointed out before, the other guy also doesn't get to learn how he responds to getting hit.

    I remember the first time I got in a fight, when I was in high school and way before I ever started training. I was looking at the other guy and something hit my head. I had no idea what it was. Then it happened again. I couldn't figure out what was going on. After the third time, I realized... "Hey, this guy is hitting me." I tried blocking the fourth one. Luckily, this was two untrained, young kids being idiots and no one got hurt. But, if you are training martial arts... you should get hit. And know what it feels like, and how you respond. And which of your techniques you can make work, when someone is really trying to hit you. You should also know what its like to hit another person, on purpose.

    No one said anything about knocking people out, or hitting hard, or dishing out concussions. Well, actually I did mention knocking people out... I said don't do it. Think about the game you played as a kid, where you punched each other in the arm. You punched with different amounts of power with different people and for different reasons. But all of the punches had some impact... they knew their arm got punched. Same deal with these drills. You are not punching to hurt, knock out or knock down each other. You are punching to train. You can slow them down and lighten their impact. As you get better with the drill and get more experience, you can increase the power and the speed. Again, no one should be getting concussions. But, people should be getting hit when they miss.

    In training this way, I am left with the good of knowing that my partner practiced defending real punches, that were meant to hit him. That way, if he ever needs to defend himself for real, he has had at least that much more experience in doing so, against real punches. Letting the other guy go home at night with a false sense of security, is not doing him any favors.
     
  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    It wouldn't look much different. The result would be the same. By the way I spar outside of my system all the time. I prefer it because those guys really don't have a clue and they don't know how to handle my techniques.

    I've sparred against amateur fighers, MMA, May Thai, and boxers. It all turned out the same way. Techniques work for a reason which is why I tell martial artist to trust their techniques and not bail out of it.
     
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  12. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    People make a lot of assumptions when they see a video. They assume that because this is the only thing they can see, it's the only thing you do.

    Same thing when I make a post. I swear if I made a post asking for advice on how to improve the front kick, I'd get at least 3 people telling me there's more kicks than a front kick, and another half a dozen telling me how kicks are useless and I should train a grappling or punching art instead.
     
  13. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    None of this stops the technique from working. If you have your guard high around your head then I can still work the technique. I have proof of that as well. if it's too much effort to get the technique in then I use a different technique that's more appropriate for the situation.

    The motion of the technique caused him to freeze. The punches look like they are wild punches but the aren't. To think so brings the assumption that I'm not controlling nor targeting the swings. The reason I'm not swinging any faster is because to do would increase power. The opening isn't as big as you think. That second punch comes by quickly.. It's like people who try to beat a train. They see the gap and think that they can get across the track in time, only to be hit by the train.

    This is why you see me land it so much. if I clan land it at this speed then I can land it at a faster speed.

    You really won't understand until you spar against some who knows how to use longfist.

    I'll make video that explains the opening that looks like you can just drive a truck through.
     
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  14. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    You're forgetting that you have to upload every instance of you sparring with the technique, and using the technique in drills in every possible situation you could use the technique, so it can be properly scrutinized. :banghead:
     
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  15. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    but your using it to hit someone who has no obvious fighting skills at all, my little sister could knock him over, you can tell from his movement and reaction he is a comparative beginner.against someone even moderately skilled that wont land it's just a hay maker. I'd be three foot away from you before you could get that to the position I used to be, it's not the motion that causes him to freeze it's the fact he isn't any good

    so the question is really have you got any students of moderate ability to demonstrate on, if not why not .?
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  16. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    One thing I'm going to really try to do with this post is really stay focused on the technique in the video. I want to squeeze as much out of it as possible.
     
  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Lol no way
     
  18. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Violence without violence is play acting.

    It just is.

    I mean, if you are under no illusions that you are training to fight, then it's a wholly different matter, but that's not the vibe I'm picking up.
     
  19. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Ok, I don't know you at all, so maybe all that is true.

    It certainly doesn't match my experience, but ok.

    The guys I train with would quickly feed you your mouth guard while you waved your arms around like that and gave that much notice for your strikes.

    When I'm watching your vids I can see them a few beats before they have any intent behind them.
     
  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Your opponents chase hands a lot.
     

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