Run away in self defense

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kung Fu Wang, Sep 21, 2019.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    21,923
    Likes Received:
    6,425
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I'm not sure that's the math I want them working on. I'd rather have them decide this is going to be more painful than it's worth to them. That, of course, is assuming they've already attacked.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,154
    Likes Received:
    2,123
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I know something easier than that and it doesn't requires less ability.

    1. Keep distance.
    I cases where guns aren't involved. If I can remain 5-6 feet away from you at all times then I don't necessarily have to run away. I can just keep the distance and I'll be safe from your anything you wish to do.



    In my self-defense class I run attack scenarios in the parking lot and parks and most people get it all wrong. But then I bring the concept of keeping distance and most of them are able to successfully evade attack. This is something that many of us have done as kids but have forgotten as adults.

    Not sure you have ever played tag with friends, but one of the fun things I did as a kid was to put something in between me and person trying to tag me. The majority of the time that person would get frustrated and stop the game. When we ran the attack scenarios, I had someone faster than me try to catch me. I used a simple and small bush in order to keep the distance. He tried to come across the bush and it slowed him down just enough for me to to make it to a bigger bush which made it more difficult for him. He never caught me and I never caught him. When roles were changed.

    I had one student that messed up a lot. Instead of creating distance she would always back herself into a corner. Her reasoning was that she felt safe because no one could attack her from behind. She was the most frustrating for this particular exercise.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,546
    Likes Received:
    2,556
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    Alexander Hamilton died in a duel with Aaron Burr over a disagreement.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    3,046
    Likes Received:
    928
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Location:
    Southeast U.S.
    I resemble that remark.:arghh::arghh:
     
  5. Rat

    Rat 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    742
    Likes Received:
    85
    Trophy Points:
    43

    too right as well. And damn thats a old one.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Invisibleflash

    Invisibleflash Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2019
    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Born in L.A.-NYC is 2nd home-Rustbelt is home base
    I just read where a white guy was attacked by a gang of blacks, he got charged for his use of self defense. He used a racial slur. Don't know if it is a trend, but self defense can be an iffy thing. Trouble is, if you are old like me, not much running ability. If you use self defense, keep your mouth shut.

    Some teens at a fair just killed an old guy playing the 'knockout game' on him.

    Teens kill man in random attack at town fair, police say

    Very troubling how our world is going.

    Knockout game - Wikipedia
     
  7. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2017
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    446
    Trophy Points:
    218
    Sometimes we need to be real about who we are, what our abilities really are and what our roles in life are. Just because I train a couple of hours a week to play tag and memorize some dance steps, at a childrens day care center or in a strip mall... doesn't mean that my last name is now Norris or Walker and that certificate that they gave me with my new belt does not double for a badge. For all my tag training... I am still just a citizen, like everyone else. I am probably not any more familiar with real violence than the average citizen, no matter what I tell myself.

    The video of the bus was probably how it would work... you step up to take out the bad guys like Walker Texas Ranger... and you immediately get pounded, stabbed, shot... sent to the hospital or worse. Surprise, the real bad guy doesn't react like my buddies did in the day care, strip mall center scenario and they went to maximum violence, maybe with a weapon, as their first attack. Even if your school is not a day care or strip mall type place... you train the real stuff or MMA... you may still in for a very rude awakening.

    If you are going to make the decision to jump in, do so with an honest evaluation of your abilities. You may be risking more than disheveled hair, an untucked shirt and bloody lip.

    Maybe you are one of the few, that can actually, easily defeat the attackers. If you are not law enforcement, you better understand the self defense law to keep from being charged and civil law to avoid being sued. There are usually laws against being a vigilante.

    Would I step in and help someone being attacked? As said, that depends. Think of your first aid training... make sure you are safe first... you can't help anyone if you are dead. Get help on the way... call 9-11 (or the equivalent) get someone coming, get the message out who is in need of help from who and why... everyone has a phone these days... get pictures or video... call peoples attention to what is happening (get more witnesses, and more people to potentially help) ... get a force multiplier if available or a plan to use the environment as much as possible (great idea above about using distance) The sooner trained law enforcement shows up, the better.

    I know it more fun to pretend all our training makes us into Norris or Walker Texas Ranger... its fun to think about being the hero, jumping in, kicking trash and walking off into the sunset. But in the real world... its better to make decisions based on reality.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2015
    Messages:
    7,154
    Likes Received:
    2,123
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Me being older just means I'm most likely to get straight to the most damaging technique or option. I'm also most likely to do all that I can within reason to avoid a fight.

    People who know feel comfortable that I won't be in a fight unless all other options fail.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,863
    Likes Received:
    1,954
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Nobody wants to get into any fight. there should be no argument on that. But if you have to get into a fight (such as to save a girl from being raped), you will need some effective finish strategy, a knock down punch, or a throw that your opponent can get back up.

    If one has trained MA over 10 years and he still can not handle a person who has no MA training, IMO there is something wrong in his MA training.

    10 years MA training > 5 years MA training > 1 year MA training > no MA training
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  10. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2017
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    446
    Trophy Points:
    218
    What We Can Learn From The Tragic Death of Kickboxing Legend Alex Gong - Woodall's Self-Defense

    It depends on your training. I have met many people who have trained MA to play tag for 20-30 years. I have met people who have trained for 20-30 without any resistance at all. Even for people who train full contact... they are not in the ring on the street. And weapons you don't realize the other guy has, are a real son of a game changer.

    What about the thug, who has been in many real gang fights, and street fights? How does he fit in with your 10 years MA training > 5 years MA training > 1 year MA training > no MA training? Where does he move in that line when he has a knife, a club, brass knuckles or a gun?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    6,072
    Likes Received:
    859
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Well that's his point, if after years of dedicated training your not at least a match for some random thug, then you have wasted your time. ( AT LEAST from a sd point of view, you have undoubtably increased your qi) Thugs with weapons change the dynamic somewhat, but if they cant hit you they cant stab you, punch you with brass or get you with a base ball bat. Theres nothing at all to be done about someone shooting at you apart from hope they miss
     
  12. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2017
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    446
    Trophy Points:
    218
    Okay... point taken. You have met with and talked with and read thread posts from many martial artists, many who have 10 or more years of training... What percentage of all those martial artists do you really think, can take a random thug on the street? What percentage of those martial artists think they can take a random thug on the street? I would guess that most martial artists, with 10 years of experience, think that they could. I would also say that the group that really could take a random thug, would be a subset. Now, we can argue all day about just how big or small that subset is and about which arts put you in or out of that subset. Those are other threads. The point is that not all who train, really can and not all who think they can, really can.

    We all post and snicker at the no touch guys, who put up money and get the crap kicked out of them. They train more than 10 years and really think that they are able to win. We all watched and criticized the wing chun guy... but he trained more than 10 years and really thought he could win. Then we see the video of the two MMA fighters getting in a brawl at a gas station... only to find out that they were outnumbered and the other guys had weapons. (ok, it wasn't a bat, it was a 2x4) Recently we saw BJ Penn get knocked out in a street fight. So, we have examples of people from the whole spectrum from no touch all the way to decorated UFC fighters getting owned in "real" fights.

    The other thing we see in a lot of incidents is people breaking rule #1. They don't bring a knife to a knife fight... they don't bring a gun to a gun fight... they don't bring a stick to a stick fight... and they don't bring enough of their buddies. This isn't because they are too stupid. It's because they thought that they were showing up for a one on one, fist fight. Then find out too late, that they showed up to a different kind of fight...

    Mr Gong could have gone out, got the guys license plate and called the police. Let law enforcement and his insurance company do their thing. I would encourage people to get help coming first, before starting to fight if possible. We just had a story where a kid got stabbed a bunch of times while everyone filmed it on the cell phone... no one helped. I am suggesting that you get your phone out and get the police coming first. I am suggesting you have a realistic view of the risk you take when you jump in. It might be better to grab a weapon of opportunity first... get some others to help out... maybe you can shout at the attacker and get him to chase you instead... keep your 6 feet of distance, with objects between you, allowing the victim to get away. I am suggesting that most of us, are not at the level where we can tighten our green belt, or brown belt or black belt... put on our cowboy hat and then calmly step into a situation expecting to "honorably" dispatch the bad guy with just our fists. Chuck Norris only does that in movies and TV shows, where he has read the script first. Memorizing patterns and playing tag at a childrens daycare center doesn't realistically prepare you to take that random thug, who may or may not be armed... who may or may not have buddies. In fact, fighting in the UFC doesn't realistically prepare you for that either.

    On top of that... someone handing you a black belt doesn't give you any more duty to make the world better, and right all the wrongs, than you had before as a regular citizen. Now that you are a black belt, your "obligation" and "responsibility" to protect your fellow man and make things right has not actually changed. You are still just a regular citizen. You don't get a badge with your belt.

    We need to be realistic about who we are and what our abilities really are. Mr Gong's story only gets sadder. The guy that shot him, hid from the police, then committed suicide because he didn't want to get caught. Had he got the plate number, and called it in, both of these guys would still be alive. But, he thought he could take the guy in a fist fight, stepped in and they both dies as a result. Filing a police report and insurance claim would have worked out much better.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    6,072
    Likes Received:
    859
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    I can't answer those questions, the only ma I know are my own group and a dozen on here.

    not can I argue with it's better to walk away if you can , that's a personal choice

    but on the other more substantive point, fighting ability like any other human attribute, complies with a bell curve, therefore 70 ISH percent are average or bellow, there's a high stastical chance that any random thug is at best average, and if you've invested a decade in fight training to not be better than average, then there is indeed something wrong with you or your training.

    can you be sucker punched, caught unawares, walk into a big right hand, yes of course you can . can you freeze when the moment comes, yes. can you fight more than one and hope for a good outcome, possibly not.

    it's about being honest with yourself, about your own attributes and your training.

    last month a had two 20 odd year old body builder types try and intimidate me, by standing 6 foot away and staring hard, I smiled at them, they then insulted me, I smiled again then, then they threatened me, again I gave them a big cheery smile, as this clearly wasn't working they d cursed to fiNd some one else to intimidate

    35 years ago there would have been a fight, as I would have attacked them, not at all caring if I won or lolost, but I'd probably have won. I usually did.

    now I just sat there in the certain knowledge that if they did get physical, at least one of them was going to know about it tomorrow, and if they as seemed likely seriously under estimated me, I could knock both over and leg it
     
  14. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2017
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    446
    Trophy Points:
    218
    If you have been fight training for 10 years and you are not better than average, then yes, I agree, there is something wrong with your training. But, what if you are not fight training?

    Consider a karate kumite point fighting champion... getting into a judo match... he will get beat pretty fast. He did train for "fighting" in a karate kumite way. Take a bjj champion, and put him in a TKD point fighting match... again he will not do well, even though he also spent his time training to "fight" in bjj matches.

    Most martial artists are martial sportsmen. That is they train to compete in their sport... matches or kata / forms contest. Some of those sports are closer to a "real" fight than others. The arts that train "real fighting" as opposed to competition... are still not fight training. They are scenario training.

    I agree with this.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,863
    Likes Received:
    1,954
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Why does anyone want to train MA without "fight training"?

    IMO, a fight training should include:

    - Ability to protect your head from punch.
    - Have knock down power and take down skill.
    - Your body is strong enough to take punch/kick.
    - You have enough endurance to fight for 15 rounds.
    - You can move fast.
    - You know how to use weapon.
    - ...



     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  16. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2017
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    446
    Trophy Points:
    218
    This is not fight training:


    This is not fight training... this is playing tag:


    This is what it looks like when people who train for competition meet people who train for fighting (skip to 4:30 in the video):


    All of these are considered martial arts. All require a lot of training. I doubt that everyone in these videos can protect their head from punch or can take a punch. The guys in the last video can... but even they have competition mindset, not fight mindset.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    6,072
    Likes Received:
    859
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    you have a curious defintion of fighting, compiction is fighting, I think that either of the guys in the second vid will have no trouble dealing with an average thug, non at all
     
  18. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,863
    Likes Received:
    1,954
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    If one doesn't train "fighting", during SD, he may not be able to protect himself. That will be his problem. If one has not developed certain "door guarding" skill, he may regret when he needs to use it.

    What is "door guarding" skill? When someone throws a punch at your head, you have a big smile on your face. Because you know that 99% of the time your front toes push kick can land on his chest before his punch can land on your face. Will it be nice to have this kind of skill?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    11,921
    Likes Received:
    2,076
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Do you honestly believe it is this easy? When was the last time you did this? When was the last time it was this easy for you?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    21,923
    Likes Received:
    6,425
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Because it interests them.
     

Share This Page