Run away in self defense

Gerry Seymour

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where you have multiple people some hidden who may or may not attack dependent on the script, it's certainly complex
Complex to manage (for the instructor/leader) but not that complex for the participant, unless you mean "complex" as in "having many variables". In the latter case, that's rather the point: having a chance to see how variables change decision outcomes.
 

dvcochran

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you have a curious defintion of fighting, compiction is fighting, I think that either of the guys in the second vid will have no trouble dealing with an average thug, non at all
I feel the video just showed that they likely Would. The guy in the blue helmet near the end of the video apparently didn't even see the second attacker and gave him his backside. Easy takedown/knockout/death.
There is a lot of different stuff going on in the three videos, each of which can and should be critiqued differently.
In the purely Martial context which I feel @wab25 was making, the post is accurate. Narrow in context maybe, but accurate. Forms and tippy/tappy sparring like shown in the video can be problematic when applied to self defense. Setting the right context in the gym/on the mat is vital.
I love forms and sparring but they have to be performed/practiced with the right mentality and understanding.
 

oftheherd1

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Complex to manage (for the instructor/leader) but not that complex for the participant, unless you mean "complex" as in "having many variables". In the latter case, that's rather the point: having a chance to see how variables change decision outcomes.

I once studied where the teacher would have students line up in two lines staggered, and facing the middle (less students-only one line was good too). Another student would walk the gauntlet. Those on the side would pick a point of attack of their choosing, and a type of attack. The defender chose the type of defense to meet the attack. Interesting for all participants.
 

jobo

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Complex to manage (for the instructor/leader) but not that complex for the participant, unless you mean "complex" as in "having many variables". In the latter case, that's rather the point: having a chance to see how variables change decision outcomes.
I mean complex as in not simple.
 

jobo

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I feel the video just showed that they likely Would. The guy in the blue helmet near the end of the video apparently didn't even see the second attacker and gave him his backside. Easy takedown/knockout/death.
There is a lot of different stuff going on in the three videos, each of which can and should be critiqued differently.
In the purely Martial context which I feel @wab25 was making, the post is accurate. Narrow in context maybe, but accurate. Forms and tippy/tappy sparring like shown in the video can be problematic when applied to self defense. Setting the right context in the gym/on the mat is vital.
I love forms and sparring but they have to be performed/practiced with the right mentality and understanding.
"likely would" is really the best you can say, with predicting the out come of future and largely undefined events. like what happens in a attack.

all you can do is out yourself about n a position hat is likely to give you a fair chance. tippy tap sparing us a step or two up the ladder from compliment partner self defence training, which it's self is several ladders better than forms
 

Gerry Seymour

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I once studied where the teacher would have students line up in two lines staggered, and facing the middle (less students-only one line was good too). Another student would walk the gauntlet. Those on the side would pick a point of attack of their choosing, and a type of attack. The defender chose the type of defense to meet the attack. Interesting for all participants.
We used this about once a month at the old dojo. It was good training for working to keep multiple people in sight, seeing how your position helped/hindered when an attack started, etc. It was often too "soft" for much realism, but worthwhile, nonetheless.
 

jobo

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Complex to manage (for the instructor/leader) but not that complex for the participant, unless you mean "complex" as in "having many variables". In the latter case, that's rather the point: having a chance to see how variables change decision outcomes.
just to add, if there are say 8 potential attackers involved in the scenario, that's a 100, million possible variations, that it a) most definitely complex and b) would take an infinite amount of time to explore how altering each of the 100, million
effects the outcome, and that with iut the many trillions of possible variations caused by the different physical capabilities of potential attackers, if your only explore say 10 variations your not really any wiser
 
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Gerry Seymour

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just to add, if there are say 8 potential attackers involved in the scenario, that's a 100, million possible variations, that it a) most definitely complex and b) would take an infinite amount of time to explore how altering each of the 100, million
effects the outcome, and that with iut the many trillions of possible variations caused by the different physical capabilities of potential attackers, if your only explore say 10 variations your not really any wiser
You don't have to explore every possible variation to get to understand the basic variables involved. You can categorize. At what point does it seem impossible to use movement to keep them in front of you? How much harder is it with one person on one side, and all others (2+) on the other? What changes when they are close together vs. far apart?
 

dvcochran

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You don't have to explore every possible variation to get to understand the basic variables involved. You can categorize. At what point does it seem impossible to use movement to keep them in front of you? How much harder is it with one person on one side, and all others (2+) on the other? What changes when they are close together vs. far apart?
@jobo's example would be the classic "paralysis by analysis" scenario.
 

jobo

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You don't have to explore every possible variation to get to understand the basic variables involved. You can categorize. At what point does it seem impossible to use movement to keep them in front of you? How much harder is it with one person on one side, and all others (2+) on the other? What changes when they are close together vs. far apart?
You don't have to explore every possible variation to get to understand the basic variables involved. You can categorize. At what point does it seem impossible to use movement to keep them in front of you? How much harder is it with one person on one side, and all others (2+) on the other? What changes when they are close together vs. far apart?
but it's still going to be 10 million to one odd, that something otherhan the 10 variations you've considered will occur
 

Gerry Seymour

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but it's still going to be 10 million to one odd, that something otherhan the 10 variations you've considered will occur
that's true of literally anything in fight training. If you train some significant variations, you learn to adapt, so the variations you didn't specifically train for aren't as difficult to adapt to.

Or, you can just give up and not train. That's an option, too.
 

jobo

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that's true of literally anything in fight training. If you train some significant variations, you learn to adapt, so the variations you didn't specifically train for aren't as difficult to adapt to.

Or, you can just give up and not train. That's an option, too.
but he isnt training them in fighting, he is training them on running away, that's called running away training, but bizarly he isn't including any instruction on running techniques, so possibly best described as ambelling away
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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but he isnt training them in fighting, he is training them on running away, that's called running away training, but bizarly he isn't including any instruction on running techniques, so possibly best described as ambelling away
So for clairication since you are stating what I am/not teaching (assuming thats about my post and not oftheherd's, i kind of lost track). First, this was a couple years ago, i no longer teach at all, and dont train a sd specific style anymore.
But more to the point, i ran in high school, if I noticed someone had an issue with their form i would correct it, and i would encourage people to run on their own outside of class. It also helped teach the 'techniques' to be aware of how to look around and pay attention while running, which does not seem to be as intuitive as simply running is.
 

Gerry Seymour

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but he isnt training them in fighting, he is training them on running away, that's called running away training, but bizarly he isn't including any instruction on running techniques, so possibly best described as ambelling away
So, don't do it if you don't understand it. Probably doesn't affect you, what he does.
 
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but he isnt training them in fighting, he is training them on running away, ...
MA training is not to train how to run away from your opponent but to train how to move around your opponent. As long as your opponent's hands cannot reach you, you don't need to run away.

Old MA saying said, "You may not be able to find any opening to attack. As long a you keep moving around, soon or later you will find an opening to attack.
 

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MA training is not to train how to run away from your opponent but to train how to move around your opponent. As long as your opponent's hands cannot reach you, you don't need to run away.

Old MA saying said, "You may not be able to find any opening to attack. As long a you keep moving around, soon or later you will find an opening to attack.

But the thread is about self defence - as in defending yourself from an attack.

Counter attack is just one possibility, and not always the best choice.

So really, the aim is not to "win", more like just "not get hit".

The best way to not get hit is to be in a different location to the strike. An inch away does count, but a mile away is even better.
 

jobo

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So for clairication since you are stating what I am/not teaching (assuming thats about my post and not oftheherd's, i kind of lost track). First, this was a couple years ago, i no longer teach at all, and dont train a sd specific style anymore.
But more to the point, i ran in high school, if I noticed someone had an issue with their form i would correct it, and i would encourage people to run on their own outside of class. It also helped teach the 'techniques' to be aware of how to look around and pay attention while running, which does not seem to be as intuitive as simply running is.
its not their form, its their speed, though the two are undoubtedly linked. its impossible to improve your sprinting form without running flat out , though you can get considerable faster without improving your technique greatly. but i'm not sure that being able to run means your capable of correcting someones form
 

jobo

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But the thread is about self defence - as in defending yourself from an attack.

Counter attack is just one possibility, and not always the best choice.

So really, the aim is not to "win", more like just "not get hit".

The best way to not get hit is to be in a different location to the strike. An inch away does count, but a mile away is even better.
its very much about running , i'm not going to say that running doesn't count as self defence, it clearly does. but its a skill in itself, and clearly not one that a ma instructor is qualified to coach you in and he makes no mention of teaching then running, just he gets them to run. that's like telling them to punch something and makes no attempt to correct or instruct them
 

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So, don't do it if you don't understand it. Probably doesn't affect you, what he does.
i do understand it, that's why i think its nonsense.

i used to practise this when i played rugby and the chances of escaping 7 determined people was about one in 10 when the pitch was 50 yards wide, in a 5 yard alleys its many many times that
 

dvcochran

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i do understand it, that's why i think its nonsense.

i used to practise this when i played rugby and the chances of escaping 7 determined people was about one in 10 when the pitch was 50 yards wide, in a 5 yard alleys its many many times that
It reads as you are saying it is easier to get away from 7 people in an alley where your options for running (direction, etc....) are very limited versus a wide open field. That does not make much sense.
 

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