Rhino guard pressure test

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kung Fu Wang, Sep 8, 2019.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Here is the pressure test for "using rhino guard to obtain clinch - change a striking game into a wrestling game".

    Your opinion are welcome.


     
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  2. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    First thought - if you're both wearing helmets, wear different color uniforms for this! (I'll give more thoughts when I finish watching).
     
  3. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    It's an interesting technique. I have to ask two questions, and then I'll give you my thoughts.
    1. What is the benefit of having your hands together instead of apart?
    2. What is the benefit of having your hands way in front of you when trying to close the distance, as opposed to closer to your body?
    To the first question, if your hands are apart, it allows you better coverage on incoming strikes, as well as gives you more options to deal with your opponent's footwork. If your hands are both shoulder level, spread right to left (like an NFL lineman engaging a block), then you can more easily catch him if he moves side-to-side. If he pushes one hand up, your other hand is still there, and it means you only have to move one hand up or down to deflect incoming punches.

    You can also spread your hands vertically. When I'm closing distance, I like to have one hand up about face level, and another hand around stomach level, so that when I close in I have multiple levels covered. The biggest flaw I see in the guard is that it only covers a very narrow amount of vertical space. It seemed very easy for your partner to get over it for a punch or under it for a body grab. I can also see numerous techniques in my Taekwondo that would get under it, such as a high block + underpunch combination, or virtually any of our kicks.

    Now onto the second question, regarding distance. I keep my hands in front of me because I want to be able to use my strikes. If I want to close in or use shorter strikes, then I don't want to block myself from entering that space. If my elbows are bent closer to my body, that gives me a few advantages in dealing with those strikes: it's easier to adjust my level because a bent arm covers more vertical space, my arms are closer which gives me more time to react to your movements, and I'm not blocking myself from closing in for the grab.

    I would also do this with my hands apart, as mentioned above, but for even more reasons (such as not blocking my own vision).

    What I would be curious to see how the rhino guard stacks up against:
    1. Both hands out, shoulder level, about a foot apart.
    2. Both hands out, centerline, one shoulder level and one belly level.
    3. Both hands up, elbows tucked in
    4. Both hands by your ears, elbows forward
    How do those change your ability to close distance and deal with the incoming strikes?
     
  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    1. What is the benefit of having your hands together instead of apart?

    You close your front door. Only allow your opponent's to punch through your side doors. This can disable your opponent's jab and cross. You encourage your opponent to use hook punch. You also hide your head behind your arms.

    2. What is the benefit of having your hands way in front of you when trying to close the distance, as opposed to closer to your body?

    To fight in your opponent's territory instead to fight in your own territory. This will disable your opponent's uppercut. If your opponent's bending arm uppercut can hit your chin, your fists should be able to hit his face too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I'll call that "double spears" strategy or "Chinese zombie arms" strategy. It's on the same level of the "rhino guard" strategy. It will be used to achieve lower body control clinch (by downward separate hands) such as

    - under hook,
    - waist wrap,
    - bear hug,
    - double legs,
    - single leg,
    - …

    The "rhino guard" strategy is used to achieve upper body control clinch (by upward separate hands) such as

    - head lock,
    - over hook,
    - arm wrap,
    - ...
     
  6. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I saw lots of straight punches get through if your partner got over your guard. There are also a lot more options than just straight punches, hooks, and uppercuts. If you've got your head buried in that guard, you're putting yourself at the perfect spot for a front snap kick to the nose. A roundhouse to the ribs or liver is also very open. And, if he moves to the side, now you're wide open, because you've put yourself into this position. It seems a very high risk guard position for very little gain, in my opinion.

    If you're going for a headlock or overhook, you want to be in his territory.
     
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The rhino guard has not been tested in the kicking environment yet. It will be tested in the next 3 months.

    This is why you want to move your hands as close to your opponent's head as possible. Of course you may have to sacrifice some of your punching ability.

    I don't mind to pay some extract price to protect my head from punched.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  8. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    What I'm saying is, in order to make the headlock work, you have to be in close. But the guard is meant to keep him away. These seem like conflicting goals to me.

    That's my point. I don't think it will protect your head better than a more traditional guard. I think that compared with a traditional guard, it provides:
    • Less coverage to block with, as you focus on only one specific area
    • Defense against less techniques
    • Less balance and ability to laterally move (especially if you're leaning forward and your head is leaning forward)
    You could have one hand do the job that your two hands are doing, with small sideways movements to parry incoming jabs and crosses. That leaves your other hand free for other things. It seems to me you're purposefully eliminating one of your limbs, as well as your flexibility, by pressing both hands together. In this application, I don't see how it provides an advantage over a boxing guard or a more traditional kung fu guard.

    This is why I said in my commentary, I'd like to see how it stacks up against those guards against similar techniques. Because it seems like it provides less coverage, less mobility, and less flexibility.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    You are right. The original intention was not to use rhino guard to chase my opponent away. The original intention was when my opponent moves in, I move in at the same time, I then use my arms to drill a hole between his arms.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Mitlov

    Mitlov Blue Belt

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    You look very vulnerable to a push kick or mid-level roundhouse, and your head looks vulnerable to a hook punch or ridgehand if your opponent steps off the line instead of retreating straight back.

    Good on you for thinking outside of the box, but at the same time, if this tactic worked, we'd likely see it in some sort of combat sport already.
     
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  11. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    It seems like a good striker could slip to the side and pick it apart with combos to the head and body.

    Also looks like hard side kicks and roundhouse kicks to the body would be problematic.

    Plus front kicks and rising front roundhouse kicks to the groin followed with head punches would cause problems as well.
     
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  12. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Instead of the striker moving backward away from the guard he should be parrying the guard sliding left or right and attacking with combos from an angle.
     
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  13. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    If my son was fighting someone using the rhino guard and I would advise him to:

    -soften him up with some hard side kicks then as he lowers the guard to help defend the side kick....feint the side kick and come over the top with punches

    -parry the guard and move off center while throwing reverse punch to body followed with hook to the head and roundhouse kick to body (preferably the liver)

    -move off center while clearing the guard with one hand and punching under or over the guard with the other hand.


    Just something for you to think and test.
     
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  14. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    The guy doing the rhino guard, seems to be off balance, leaning to far forward. He also seems committed to linear forward movement, while being off balance. A parry as CB Jones suggests, then entering with your hip should produce a very pretty hip throw.

    In fact, I use something similar in a drill I use to teach people how to do non-static hip throws. (a static hip throw is where you start facing your uke, in a standard gi grip, then execute your off balance and throw... which is good for learn how to do the throw, but not so good for how to apply the throw) In the first part of the drill, uke walks toward tori, both arms extended... I tell them to try to grab tori by the neck, as seen in movies, and choke him with their hands. Tori, parries, enters and throws. This way tori gets to apply the throw, in a semi dynamic situation. Next step, have uke to a forward roll towards tori, with the intent of finishing the roll standing and grabbing tori's neck. Tori should blend in with uke as he is standing. He should continue ukes motion forward to off balance him, never let him stand, enter and get his throw. This is a little more dynamic situation. You can then have tori give different attacks from walking or rolling. You can work up to random attacks and then even into randori.

    When I saw the rhino guard, I immediately thought of the drills we do, only with rhino hands instead of zombie arms or spears. To me it says "I am trying to help you throw me."
     
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  15. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well maybe, and maybe not. There are all kinds of things that work quite well, that are not found in a combat sport venue. Not everything has a place in every venue. Some things are not appropriate in a particular venue, or they don’t have a need for it because they use other things that also work.

    I could see this rhino guard working in some circumstances, and not in others. Like everything, it depends. Nothing is perfect for everything, nothing works all the time.

    Whether or not something is being used in a combat sports venue is hardly the yardstick to measure whether it works well.
     
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  16. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Right inside leg kick when the guy steps in, Angle out, Uppercut, Overhand, Hook the body.
     
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  17. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Also, I think it might be susceptible to an opponent slipping to the side and sweeping the front leg or a hard kick to the calf/lower leg.
     
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  18. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I would need to see it applied when there is kicking involve. For me, I would probably punch the arms. I tend to take what my opponent is willing to give. So in this scenario, I would attack the arms literally punching them for the purpose of making the less efficient.

    I'm happy not to punch at the face if you are willing to give me something else to punch at.

    The video looks like you were testing it against one type of an attack.
     
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  19. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I guess it makes sense for that specific purpose. That doesn't appear to be how it was used (for the most part) in this practical display.

    I was with you up until the last sentence. Some strategies haven't been identified or widely publicized yet.

    On attacking the hand. I was mainly looking at this from a TKD perspective last night. But this morning I was thinking about it from the Hapkido perspective. If someone wants to give me their hands and keep the rest of their body away, an experienced Hapkidoist would have a field day.
     
  20. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    Can you elaborate on what you mean here? I agree that the hip throws, sweeps and sacrifice throws are readily available. But, the wrist locks will be next to impossible to get since the hands are together, supporting each other. The elbow locks look inviting... but again, since the hands are together, if there is even a slight bend in his elbows, the elbow locks will be very hard to get. Was there some other direction you were going?
     
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