Questions about Balintawak

[Cruentus]

Sorry Bob...I didn't see your warning before I posted.

Paul M.,

Who are you coming to the rescue of? If he wants to deal with it, let him. Not a witch hunt, unless you see a witch hunt....

Not rescueing anyone, just clarifying, that's all. You asked, so I figured you wanted some kind of answer.

 

[Joe Eccleston]

Well, as everyone can see, if I handle things in as mature of a manner as I am capable, then I am blamed for being on a "high horse." If I take another route and nitpick and argue, then I am blamed for being a "troublemaker" at the very least.

I guess when someone or certian people are against you, no matter what you say, you can't win with them.

Such is the nature of fantasy communication.

Paul... you are like a date from hell. NO, I DO NOT WANT TO CALL YOU!!! No, I will not call you.

You have already offered me more than sufficient reasons not to call you, nor speak with you in private. Your little quip about a one hand clapping was rude and disrespectful, after I had just posted my reasons, having thoroughly explained myself of where I stand.

Further more, we have NOTHING to talk about, Paul. We obviously have a difference of opinions about "Successorship" in FMA. Dan Anderson has provided us with a quote, which is exactly my stance and what I've been trying to explain.

As far as any attacks, if you can even call them that, they were all towards DATU Tim Hartman. And I said what I said, because I was angered that I had been duped into his little advertising ploy with Red Blade, whose account is now suspended. Pending the investigation, we will later see about this matter.

As for the disrespect of Elders (you can view all of my posts), I have never even come close to disrespecting any. I feel that it is not even our place to mention them in a politicized manner. Mention them yes, to enlighten ourselves with history, but not to crap on their names.

I am in L.A. practicing Balintawak. If I choose not to reveal my address, or my Social Security number, or my phone number, or my mother's maiden name on the internet, that is my choice. It is not your place to judge me, because I've chosen not to.

I believe that covers everything.

 

[Toasty]

Ok, here is the deal....I AM NO LONGER GOING TO READ OR POST ON THIS SITE EVER AGAIN. I will be erasing it from my database. All responses will go unread.

Mr. Eccleston, I truly believe you a a troll for the reasons stated in my earlier post. For someone who "just started Balintawak a few weeks ago" you certainly have a lot of onesided information available.
You can twist my words all you want (its been done before), but people with 1/2 a brain can read for themselves that you were the one that infered about Ancion dying in poverty is the fault of all those who teach/taught commercaily. You can call people names ant what not, but as soon as I do the same I "have issues to work out"...yeah thats fair.

To any one else who cannot read past what they want to see, Take a class on reading comprehension. Then, get off the internet & do something else. go outside, it's a nice day!

For all those who have ever had or ever will have a problem with me...
I Am Bigger Than You, I Am Badder Than You And I'll Chop you Down Like Mowing Weeds yeeaaahhhhh!!!!
(the above is a joke, it's a line from a song by a great Ska band called Pietasters)

Good Bye
signed, a real person
Rob

 

[Joe Eccleston]

Mr. Eccleston, I truly believe you a a troll for the reasons stated in my earlier post. For someone who "just started Balintawak a few weeks ago" you certainly have a lot of onesided information available.

What "onesided information", which I "certainly have a lot of", are you talking about, Toasty?

Yes, I have only began training in Balintawak. But, I ask many questions and I research a lot of information. When you do this, you tend to learn a lot. I am interested in its history. But, I have never posted anything that comes close to disrespect of these Elders.

 

[loki09789]

Hey, no problem Paul M., and thanks for clarifying. The fact of the matter is that you, Tim K., and Rich C. did defend Joe. It is good to know that you are just expressing your genuine opinion, and that there isn't some other motive.

I think that I should also clarify that I am not about to defend "Red Blades" actions here. I disagree with the way he has behaved.

However, I think that this has turned into a witch hunt on Datu Tim, when all the facts aren't out yet. I am sure the admins. are reviewing the situation and exactly what happened here will come to light very soon, as Bob said when he unlocked the thread. That is why Bob asked that the conversation be limited to Balintawak, and not the issue at hand; at least not until the admins. find out what happened exactly. Yet, the witch-hunt continues. I think that to blame and make public inferences as to what is going on is not only speculative, but its not fair.

I think that the right thing to do here would be to refrain from judging the situation until all the facts are straight.

My humble opinion.

:asian:

You are using the term 'fact' again interchangeably with 'opinion.' If in comparison to Red Blade's behavior Joe doesn't come out as trollish okay fine, fine I defended him.

I never said anything except that Red Blade has a history of trollish behavior and that the volume of it is about Modern Arnis - which discredits Red Blades claims to JKD/FMA training and only using MA as a supplement. I did say that it if you read through the posts, they point to undermining people and not about 'friendly discussion' and are no where near 'informative.'

That's all. I am done with this for now.

 

[Cruentus]

I don't know why I am responding to "fantasy" when I have a ton of work to do, but here it goes, point by point...

Paul... you are like a date from hell. NO, I DO NOT WANT TO CALL YOU!!! No, I will not call you.

O.K.....now that was kinda funny.

You have already offered me more than sufficient reasons not to call you, nor speak with you in private. Your little quip about a one hand clapping was rude and disrespectful, after I had just posted my reasons, having thoroughly explained myself of where I stand.

Your accusations based on a speculative arguement is a hell of a lot more disrespectful then my sarcasm. The only sufficient reason for us not having a real conversation can only be because you'd rather dabble in fantasy. You'd rather distance yourself from the reality that there are real people behind these keyboards so you can speculate and slam anyone you want without the facts to back you up. Or, perhaps your afraid to talk to me. I don't know the answer, all I know is that until real communication happends, this conversation is the equivalent of my magic user character argueing with your elf character during a D&D game.

Further more, we have NOTHING to talk about, Paul. We obviously have a difference of opinions about "Successorship" in FMA. Dan Anderson has provided us with a quote, which is exactly my stance and what I've been trying to explain.

Once again, idle speculation. You don't know what my opinion is on successorship because I have never stated it! My opinion is closer to yours and Dans (a friend of mine, btw, and we kicked back with a few beers 2 weekends ago; thats what I call "real" communication! ) on "successorship," but you wouldn't know that because we haven't had any "real" communication yet. My opinions on successorship is that your skill and proficiency in the art determines your ability to "succeed" the art, not titles, rank, heresay, or lineage. Yet, I still have a problem with people spreading things that are untrue. So, I'll defend my teacher, Anciong, and the Balintawak history NOT because of successorship, but because of truth. I think that the spreading of lies is the ultimate "disrespect."

However, you would rather spread B.S. then have a real conversation here, as it would seem. THis is something that I do have a problem with.

As far as any attacks, if you can even call them that, they were all towards DATU Tim Hartman. And I said what I said, because I was angered that I had been duped into his little advertising ploy with Red Blade, whose account is now suspended. Pending the investigation, we will later see about this matter.

I don't care who they were towards, the fact is your witch-hunting. You have no idea what the facts are, yet you make assumptions. "pending investigation, we'll later see about this matter?" See what Joe? Your mind has been made up before the facts are on the table, so what is their to see?

Once again, in fantasy land, once your against someone it won't matter what facts are brought forth. If the facts prove you wrong, you'll only attempt to turn it against Datu Tim, or whomever you wish. At least, that is what it seems.

As for the disrespect of Elders (you can view all of my posts), I have never even come close to disrespecting any. I feel that it is not even our place to mention them in a politicized manner. Mention them yes, to enlighten ourselves with history, but not to crap on their names.

I am in L.A. practicing Balintawak. If I choose not to reveal my address, or my Social Security number, or my phone number, or my mother's maiden name on the internet, that is my choice. It is not your place to judge me, because I've chosen not to.

I believe that covers everything.

How about your bank account #? Don't be ridicules, no one is asking for you to list every aspect of your personal life online. I have only asked for some real communication to occur.

Instead, you continue to indulge in fantasy and destructive behavior. Your choice, I just hope that people will see it for what it is.

PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

You are using the term 'fact' again interchangeably with 'opinion.' If in comparison to Red Blade's behavior Joe doesn't come out as trollish okay fine, fine I defended him.

I never said anything except that Red Blade has a history of trollish behavior and that the volume of it is about Modern Arnis - which discredits Red Blades claims to JKD/FMA training and only using MA as a supplement. I did say that it if you read through the posts, they point to undermining people and not about 'friendly discussion' and are no where near 'informative.'

That's all. I am done with this for now.

I agree with you mostly, except I don't believe I am interchanging fact with opinion. Yes, in comparison to Red Blades behavior, you defended Joe; not a big deal, it's jsut what happened.

I agree, at least from what I have seen in this thread, that Red Blades behavior isn't good.

I think I am done now too, hopefully, for awhile! :ultracool

 

[Joe Eccleston]

Once again, idle speculation. You don't know what my opinion is on successorship because I have never stated it! My opinion is closer to yours and Dans (a friend of mine, btw, and we kicked back with a few beers 2 weekends ago; thats what I call "real" communication! ) on "successorship".

For this part, I am truly sorry. I was under the impression that you and DATU Tim Hartman were of the same mind. I argued my point with the DATU and he argued his. But, all that was within the bigger picture of commercialization.

We'll see what the verdict is. And yes, I am somewhat biased. I do not apologize for this, because this whole thread was far too coincidental. It took me awhile to realize, but I was not born yesterday.

As for the other points you've wrote, I am not even going to bother rebutting. But, the sentence below though is some what bothersome.

I think that the spreading of lies is the ultimate "disrespect."

Are you saying that I am spreading lies? Please inform me what they are.

 

[Cruentus]

Are you saying that I am spreading lies? Please inform me what they are.

No, I am not accusing you. I am just saying that I will defend my art lies (and those who spread them) when nessicary.

I do think that you are expressing what you know from your point of view. And, as the saying goes, "There is your viewpoint, my viewpoint, and then the truth."

Example, your viewpoint is that Balintawak was never used for comercial purposes by the old masters. Yet, I know of stories where people weren't trained by certian people unless they could pay. One funny one was where someone came to learn Balintawak, so the teacher handed him a stick, and asked the student to attack. The teacher would block, and tap a pocket to see if he could hear any loose change or a wallet. After he blocked and tapped all the pockets, he said something to the effect of, "Alright. Lesson over. Come back when you have the ability to pay." There were cases when people who couldn't pay would be asked to be a servent for free to some of the teachers. Anciong did not run his club in a comercial manner. Yet, many of the other teachers of the art did.

Does this mean that Balintawak used entirely for capatilistic purposes? No...but to say that payment and commercialization never occured would be not entirely true either.

Am I being disrespectful by saying my side of the story? I don't think so. But this is an example of how my viewpoint differs from yours; an issue better hashed out in person then online to prevent misunderstanding.

Now, the big question: is Datu Hartman and PAUL of the same mind!? :uhyeah:

The impression may be that we are at times, but we are not. The fact is, we share the same teachers (Remy P. and Ted B.), yet he is my senior. The fact is, I am a member of his organization, and on his advisory board (but understand that my statements are my own here, and I am not speaking officially for the organization). So, if he is being wrongfully attacked, then yes, I feel obligated to say something. Also, our opinion's do coincide in many ways. However, Tim run's his organization very freely in that members are entitled to their own opinions and points of view. Many times Tim and I don't agree. Furthermore, many times Tim's students and affiliates post without Tim's "consent" or knowledge, as we are free to do so. There are times when I have said stuff, and Tim was like, "I can't believe you said that!" THere are times when Tim has recieved phone calls inquiring as to why "Tim's guy" would have said something, when Tim was out of town, offline, and had no idea of what was being said.

So, there just isn't this coheresing that some people might think. As Gen. Patton has said, "If everyone agree's then no one is thinking!" If we weren't allowed to think in Tim's org., then I wouldn't be a part of it. There are many times that Tim and I disagree, but we choose not to argue over these issues online. I prefer to debate rather then argue.

Last thing: Was this a marketing ploy?

I will say that you need to watch what you say before you slam on the cost of the seminar. NONE of that money as listed would go to Datu Tim. Tim has been very generous with his school, and has let many people use it free of charge for the promotion of the arts; Bram Frank and Jerome Barber are two that come to mind. Tim offered his school to Atillo for free.

So, TIm has no motive to fabricate this thread as a marketing ploy. Furthermore, Tim isn't trying to "comercialize" Balintawak, as it is Atillo who is teaching in a seminar format, and asking payment for his services (not that I am faulting him for this; he should get paid for his time and travels, IMHO).

So once again, Joe, things are not as they seem, and why I think that real communication is important.

:asian:

 

[Tgace]

This seems like a repeating theme around here....words change but the song remains the same. Is entertaining to watch though...like a cage match.

 

[Joe Eccleston]

Example, your viewpoint is that Balintawak was never used for comercial purposes by the old masters. Yet, I know of stories where people weren't trained by certian people unless they could pay. One funny one was where someone came to learn Balintawak, so the teacher handed him a stick, and asked the student to attack. The teacher would block, and tap a pocket to see if he could hear any loose change or a wallet. After he blocked and tapped all the pockets, he said something to the effect of, "Alright. Lesson over. Come back when you have the ability to pay." There were cases when people who couldn't pay would be asked to be a servent for free to some of the teachers. Anciong did not run his club in a comercial manner. Yet, many of the other teachers of the art did.

This story is funny. But, unless you get other people's perspectives then it should remain as heresay. It's just like Atillo's fight with Bacon. It was a great story, the only thing was Atillo's students weren't suppose to tell it to everyone. If they wanted to know the truth, they should've researched more and checked up on other perspectives. This would've been the fair thing to do.

This is obviously Ted Buot's version. So, you need to talk to others to verify it. I respect the fact that you didn't mention names, as Toasty did. Because in the end they (the elders) should sort this out amongst themselves. I'm sure other students of other schools are getting the shyt stories about Ted Buot himself, the same way you're getting shyt stories about others. But we should have the respect to just leave these stories for them to sort out. It's that simple.

Does this mean that Balintawak used entirely for capatilistic purposes? No...but to say that payment and commercialization never occured would be not entirely true either.

As for commercialization, I've already related Teofilo Velez's philosophy in teaching. His philosophy rings true for me because I do not pay for my training anymore.

I am familiar with Velez's side of the story, but less so with others. Toasty, mentioned making money off Balintawak. I'm sure people tried to sell this Art, but the fact of the matter is no one made money of it in the Philippines. All you have to do is visit where they live in Cebu.

 

[loki09789]

No, I am not accusing you. I am just saying that I will defend my art lies (and those who spread them) when nessicary.

I do think that you are expressing what you know from your point of view. And, as the saying goes, "There is your viewpoint, my viewpoint, and then the truth."

Example, your viewpoint is that Balintawak was never used for comercial purposes by the old masters. Yet, I know of stories where people weren't trained by certian people unless they could pay. One funny one was where someone came to learn Balintawak, so the teacher handed him a stick, and asked the student to attack. The teacher would block, and tap a pocket to see if he could hear any loose change or a wallet. After he blocked and tapped all the pockets, he said something to the effect of, "Alright. Lesson over. Come back when you have the ability to pay." There were cases when people who couldn't pay would be asked to be a servent for free to some of the teachers. Anciong did not run his club in a comercial manner. Yet, many of the other teachers of the art did.

Does this mean that Balintawak used entirely for capatilistic purposes? No...but to say that payment and commercialization never occured would be not entirely true either.

Am I being disrespectful by saying my side of the story? I don't think so. But this is an example of how my viewpoint differs from yours; an issue better hashed out in person then online to prevent misunderstanding.

Now, the big question: is Datu Hartman and PAUL of the same mind!? :uhyeah:

The impression may be that we are at times, but we are not. The fact is, we share the same teachers (Remy P. and Ted B.), yet he is my senior. The fact is, I am a member of his organization, and on his advisory board (but understand that my statements are my own here, and I am not speaking officially for the organization). So, if he is being wrongfully attacked, then yes, I feel obligated to say something. Also, our opinion's do coincide in many ways. However, Tim run's his organization very freely in that members are entitled to their own opinions and points of view. Many times Tim and I don't agree. Furthermore, many times Tim's students and affiliates post without Tim's "consent" or knowledge, as we are free to do so. There are times when I have said stuff, and Tim was like, "I can't believe you said that!" THere are times when Tim has recieved phone calls inquiring as to why "Tim's guy" would have said something, when Tim was out of town, offline, and had no idea of what was being said.

So, there just isn't this coheresing that some people might think. As Gen. Patton has said, "If everyone agree's then no one is thinking!" If we weren't allowed to think in Tim's org., then I wouldn't be a part of it. There are many times that Tim and I disagree, but we choose not to argue over these issues online. I prefer to debate rather then argue.

Last thing: Was this a marketing ploy?

I will say that you need to watch what you say before you slam on the cost of the seminar. NONE of that money as listed would go to Datu Tim. Tim has been very generous with his school, and has let many people use it free of charge for the promotion of the arts; Bram Frank and Jerome Barber are two that come to mind. Tim offered his school to Atillo for free.

So, TIm has no motive to fabricate this thread as a marketing ploy. Furthermore, Tim isn't trying to "comercialize" Balintawak, as it is Atillo who is teaching in a seminar format, and asking payment for his services (not that I am faulting him for this; he should get paid for his time and travels, IMHO).

So once again, Joe, things are not as they seem, and why I think that real communication is important.

:asian:

This is a little long, but I think the point you are trying to make is that ALL comments need to be reserved until the admin make some kind of announcment. Am I right? If so, any 'defense of' statements can be misconstrued as admittance of guilt - when nothing is comfirmed yet.

I made posts about the activities of Red Blade and Red Blade ONLY. I think it would be wise for all comments about Tim H/Red Blade/marketting/character scams to stop.

Red Blade will be identified, the connections or lack will be clarified. As long as things are dealt with objectively, fairly and blindly (regarding conflict of interests, affiliations....) everything will be fine.

 

[loki09789]

Any investigation results as of yet? It has been about 2 days now and I was wondering if there was an estimated conclusion to this fiasco. I would like to move on.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Later tonite I would expect.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Official Statement
"We have completed our investigation of this incident and determined there were no violations of MartialTalk policy. The Red Blade account however has been suspended until such time as the user provides the required name/location information."

 

[bart]

Official Statement
"We have completed our investigation of this incident and determined there were no violations of MartialTalk policy. The Red Blade account however has been suspended until such time as the user provides the required name/location information."

Well, I might not agree all the way, but I'm glad that nobody was banned, that was never my intention. My intention was only to show why I doubted Red Blade/Renegade's intentions.

Gentlemen....
Also, please allow the mods to complete their investigation before speculating.

All right, let the speculation begin! Tim, aka Renegade/Red Blade, do you have anything to say? Paul particularly took me to task as disrespectful, illogical, and slanderous in this somewhat controversial thread, specifically concerning my doubt about you. So let's clear the air. What's the story with the Renegade username answering a question to the Red Blade username as if Renegade were Red Blade?

 

[DoxN4cer]

All right, let the speculation begin! Tim, aka Renegade/Red Blade, do you have anything to say? Paul particularly took me to task as disrespectful, illogical, and slanderous in this somewhat controversial thread, specifically concerning my doubt about you. So let's clear the air. What's the story with the Renegade username answering a question to the Red Blade username as if Renegade were Red Blade?

Yes, let's clear the air ... wait... let me get my hip waders on.

Tim Kashino

 

[loki09789]

Let me start this out witht this statement: I am exercising my right to express my 'opinion' about this since the results have come out.

That is kind of a weak public statement. Results of the investigation? Who did the Red Blade account belong to? Where were they posting from other than Renegade's account? How could Renegade reasonably NOT KNOW who Red Blade was, if Red Blade had access to his computer? People talk about this stuff off the net too. Why isn't Red Blade (real person - not just the account) not being suspended for wrongfully accessing someone elses account - after lieing about information like training and location? Why isn't Renegade being held accountable for not maintaining security control over said access? Who did conduct the investigation - that would not have a conflict of interest themselves since Bob opted to delegate it because of his conflict of interest?

In the past, and yes I am referring to the lambasting that Jerome took on this forum for essentially being suspended (3 months) for sharing account information, the details of investigations and and the suspended person's (Jeromes for the example) reputations of those involved have been paraded through the internet streets as nastily as the physical bodies of those contractors in Iraq had been just recently.

If the reasoning is to 'take the high road' and try and manage this situation with dignity, I applaud such behavior. BUT, that would mean that those Moderators, Administrators, Advisors and MT staff members who represent the embodiment of the forum rules and are diplomats of the forum owe Jerome and anyone else who has suffered less than "friendly discussion" conditions apologies for the lack of dignified behavior in the past. Otherwise it will look like unfair and inequitable enforcement of rules and conduct on the behalf of those who are in charge here - much like the behavior in the case of real world rulers has been questioned because they demonstrated favoritism (in this case to those who pay for advertising and are rich in reputation points and titles).

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Tim,
Thats a bit unfair, IMHO.

In the past cases of stuff like this, we'd trace the IPs, cross reference a few things, and bam - everything's clear. Past cases traced primarily back to a work place, and a library.

In this case, it wasn't that easy. Red Blades IP addresses are dynamic and shared among several others. The key piece is the actual post in question..that is gone.

Why is it gone? Because, dumb *** that -I- am, when I saw it it basically said 'whoops' so I deleted it to keep the thread cleaner. (I usually do delete the 'opps' typs posts when I come across them) At the time, I wasn't aware of a problem.

Without that key post, and with the ambiguity in the IP addresses, we're forced at this time to write it off as a fluke. The 'how' is being looked into. This 'user posts as different user' has happened at least once before, so we're looking at the database to try and figure things out.

Now, there is the 'if everythings ok, why is RedBlade suspended?' question.
RedBlades account has no id info. Since the account was signed up back when we first started the board, it wasn't required then. Now, our policy towards long time users is, we only ask when theres a problem. This situation made a problem, so we're waiting on ID info (name/location).

Basically, if its a software or hardware issue, I want to know what is is so I can get it fixed. If its someone playing some game, then I want to know about it. I really don't care to see this board used for game playing, and I tend to lose respect for those who do so.

 

[loki09789]

Tim,
Thats a bit unfair, IMHO.

In the past cases of stuff like this, we'd trace the IPs, cross reference a few things, and bam - everything's clear. Past cases traced primarily back to a work place, and a library.

In this case, it wasn't that easy. Red Blades IP addresses are dynamic and shared among several others. The key piece is the actual post in question..that is gone.

Why is it gone? Because, dumb *** that -I- am, when I saw it it basically said 'whoops' so I deleted it to keep the thread cleaner. (I usually do delete the 'opps' typs posts when I come across them) At the time, I wasn't aware of a problem.

Without that key post, and with the ambiguity in the IP addresses, we're forced at this time to write it off as a fluke. The 'how' is being looked into. This 'user posts as different user' has happened at least once before, so we're looking at the database to try and figure things out.

Now, there is the 'if everythings ok, why is RedBlade suspended?' question.
RedBlades account has no id info. Since the account was signed up back when we first started the board, it wasn't required then. Now, our policy towards long time users is, we only ask when theres a problem. This situation made a problem, so we're waiting on ID info (name/location).

Basically, if its a software or hardware issue, I want to know what is is so I can get it fixed. If its someone playing some game, then I want to know about it. I really don't care to see this board used for game playing, and I tend to lose respect for those who do so.

What are these dynamic locations? Who were the sharing parties - isn't that a suspendable violation? Traced back to a library? So, you're talking about a computer lab environment, and didn't the parties (Tim and Keith) posting as Norshadow step up. THere were also posts from 'dynamic' locations in that case.