Questions about Balintawak

[Datu Tim Hartman]

but to say he was the only "Successor" would go against cultural norms in the Philippines..

If this is the case then why would GM Presas (a Filipino) publicly name me as one of his Successors?

If Anciong Bacon did name a clear "Successor", as in other Asian martial systems, he would have been really pissed off with the other Balintawak instructors teaching Balintawak.

Are you sure he didn't? GM Buot was there and you weren't.

To open the Pandora's box of Balintawak "SUCCESSORSHIP" (besides missing the whole culture of Balintawak and other FMAs), would only serve to piss on the relationship of the old timers and their art. This is, of course, is no disrespect to Ted Buot... I'm sure he would agree to what I've just wrote.

Maybe you should ask him yourself!

 

[tshadowchaser]

Tim has always posted his seminar information way ahead of time so that evryone who wanted to show up could. He has named those who would be inattendence teaching and notables that whould be ther also. He updates that information as it changes.
He has always been up frount with this information on this forum

 

[Joe Eccleston]

I think I understand this whole "successorship" BS now. It's a Modern Arnis fetish. "you are my successor!!!". "you are my heir". "you are my next in line".

If we took this seriously, then we'd have to ask who Ted Buot's "successor" is? Datu Tim Hartman?

or how about this... (let's fry our brain cells a little here) who was Anciong Bacon the successor of? Lorenzo Saavedra (his only teacher)? Does Lorenzo Saavedra know this? and who was Saavedra the successor of?

Of course the impetus here is obvious... "I am the "successor" of Presas and Buot (who was the only successor of Bacon), this is the reason I can charge 125 bucks a seminar. Why? Because I am the SUCCESSOR!!!"

as far as the seminar is concerned, it was far too coincidental. One person starts a thread about GM Atillo, another starts with the "he is wrong, my master is the successor BS", and after awhile, "hey folks, i'm having this guy over for only 125 bucks!!!".

If Ted Buot was the only "SUCCESSOR" of Bacon, and everyone followed this formal "decree", no one would've known about Balintawak in Cebu, the Philippines, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, and all other countries Balintawak is now known. What does this make other Balintawak fighters who never trained with Buot? Are they fakes? Sub-standard maybe? If so, all you need to do is contact Bobby Taboada, Nick Elizar, Bobby Tabimina, and all others who didn't train under Ted Buot.

I know I'm not Filipino, but I atleast try to learn the very culture whose art I'm practicing. But, then again it's not the Money for me, I just love the Art. (But then again, maybe I should get my teacher to write me a certificate or contract saying he'll make me HIS "successor"... It might prove profitable in the future)

While you guys wallow in this commercialized version of Balintawak, please remember that the guy who began this all, died a very poor and uneventful death. He never got a penny (or centavo) from this. Remember this while you're making money as a "Balintawak Successor".

I'm out...

 

[Rich Parsons]

I think I understand this whole "successorship" BS now. It's a Modern Arnis fetish. "you are my successor!!!". "you are my heir". "you are my next in line".

If we took this seriously, then we'd have to ask who Ted Buot's "successor" is? Datu Tim Hartman?

or how about this... (let's fry our brain cells a little here) who was Anciong Bacon the successor of? Lorenzo Saavedra (his only teacher)? Does Lorenzo Saavedra know this? and who was Saavedra the successor of?

Of course the impetus here is obvious... "I am the "successor" of Presas and Buot (who was the only successor of Bacon), this is the reason I can charge 125 bucks a seminar. Why? Because I am the SUCCESSOR!!!"

as far as the seminar is concerned, it was far too coincidental. One person starts a thread about GM Atillo, another starts with the "he is wrong, my master is the successor BS", and after awhile, "hey folks, i'm having this guy over for only 125 bucks!!!".

If Ted Buot was the only "SUCCESSOR" of Bacon, and everyone followed this formal "decree", no one would've known about Balintawak in Cebu, the Philippines, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, and all other countries Balintawak is now known. What does this make other Balintawak fighters who never trained with Buot? Are they fakes? Sub-standard maybe? If so, all you need to do is contact Bobby Taboada, Nick Elizar, Bobby Tabimina, and all others who didn't train under Ted Buot.

I know I'm not Filipino, but I atleast try to learn the very culture whose art I'm practicing. But, then again it's not the Money for me, I just love the Art. (But then again, maybe I should get my teacher to write me a certificate or contract saying he'll make me HIS "successor"... It might prove profitable in the future)

While you guys wallow in this commercialized version of Balintawak, please remember that the guy who began this all, died a very poor and uneventful death. He never got a penny (or centavo) from this. Remember this while you're making money as a "Balintawak Successor".

I'm out...

Joe, I apologize if you took my words that way.


I respect GM Remy Presas as he did his own thing.

I respect GM Anciong Bacon for doing his own thing.

I respect the students of GM Anciong Bacon who taught or are teaching. They did there own things. I have not disrespect or issues with this. I do have issues with people who make a statement and then cannot back it up with facts or evidence. Bobby Tabamina who etaches Balintawak, I have never meet and he was one if not the last full time student of GM Anciong Bacon. I respect his acts of trying to promote the art. Yet all of these people have one thing in common, they all agree that GM Anciong as different from the Doces Pares in techniques, and he started Balintawak. Bacon's students who have moved on added or modified, all changed or modified the name even as simple as putting their own name in front. I respect this much more, as they are stating here it is and this is what I am doing. No hiding, no issues, no hidden agendas. Atillo has made claims that I do not think are true. I said Think. He, Atillo, also claims a different version of history then everyone else. This raises the flags of people who wonder why. Atillo also states it is Balintawak he teaches yet it came from someone else other than Bacon. I would respect and understand more if Atillo had marketed it as Atillo Balintawak and moved on with just his skill and talents. It is when he throws mudd with his comments that I begin to question why? I see only lose. Obviously he trained with Gm Anciong there pictures. Obvious he trained with his father. No one is having a problem with this.

What people are having a problem swallowing is the ner version of history with no other versions to back it up. The use of the term being only he has the real Balintawak because it came from the teaches of GM Bacon. This is what is causing everyone problems.

In my opinion, which means very little, I think GM Atillo should just market his own thing. Then you will not have these issues or questions of character come up nad some people think it necessary to establish who is right by defining all the others as being wrong.

With respect to all those who practice, teach, and live the FMA's
:asian:

 

[bart]

Lets do this by the numbers...
#1
O.K., now that your armed with that info, think logically. WHY would someone of Tim's status and experience need to coherse with "Red Blade" to create controvery in order to promote an event? He wouldn't. If he wanted to promote an event, he'd just post the information, as he has ALWAYS done in the past. To think otherwise, especially without proof, is illogical given these facts. Furthermore, to suggest it without any evidence is slanderousand disrespectful at best. Frankly, I am disappointed in you, Bart, for this implication, and disappointed in anyone who'd believe such hogwash without any evidence to prove it.

PAUL

Well what can I say, sometimes I just disappoint people. All right, here's the evidence. I didn't want to bring this up because it's not an outright condemnation, it's just fishy. But since I'm being accused of being slanderous, I'll mention it. The post below came in asking Red Blade about what FMA/JKD background s/he had as whoever Red Blade is was not very forthcoming on their bio.

Red Blade,

Your bio just says FMA/JKD, I was curious who your intel sources might be and where you are training in Bk? Which JKD affiliation are you with?

I started with Bobby Taboada a while ago, but had to stop for education and deployment reasons. I know that the majority here are Ted Buot students, but wasn't sure for you since JKD is geographically more common on the west coast and in NYC.

I did post this before, but I think it got lost in the rapid hits that were going on at the same time.

Just a little bit later this post comes in through the email from MT saying there's a new post:

Hello bart,

Renegade has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Questions about Balintawak - in the Filipino Martial Arts - General forum of MartialTalk.Com.

This thread is located at:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13634&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
No Balintawak training. Thought I would give it a try. As far as my intel goes, I remember an article that may have been an interview. I was wondering if anyone else may have seen it.
***************


There may be other replies also, but you will not receive any more notifications until you visit the forum again.

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MartialTalk.Com team

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Fishy? Yes...very. It appears that Renegade is answering Red Blade's post. I've viewed Tim's site and it says under influences "Grand Master Ted Buot - Balintawak". I've assumed before that it meant he trained with him. The email above says differently. You can draw your own conclusions, but after reading that it made the whole thread seem off. But magically when I went to see that post on MT it had been edited.

What are the goals there? I can't be sure, but marketing is among the more honorable ones so that's the one I chose to talk about before. An additional one could be the artificial creation of a dialogue which has only one end: reiteration of GM Buot as the only "successor" to Anciong's Original Balintawak. And who would be the one to say that?

Question 3
Did GM Bacon name a successor?
Answer: No straight answer.

Yes, GM Ted Buot. This was done prior to Manong Ted moving to the US. This makes sense seeing that he was the ONLY person that was allowed to teach while GM Bacon wasn't present at the club.
:asian:

By the way, we all know GM Buot is the only authorized successor. Not that it's really that important to him, but I have great respect for the man and would consider myself lucky to train with him even if just for an afternoon. I subscribed to Martial Talk magazine just to read that interview. All I originally wanted to do in this thread was add in my two cents about how there is SOME truth in the Saavedra-Atillo link. I'm not a GM or a Master, but I feel that I have something to offer polite discussion which is why I prefer this BB over others. I just felt duped into participating in some type of minor dishonesty that I didn't want to be involved in. So I spoke up about it in what I thought was a very nondescript way.

#2 "Renegade, I just hope that when you bring Atillo to your school that you give him the respect that the old man deserves."

As Arnisidor has said, proper respect has always been given. Why would you think otherwise is this case? To think otherwise would be illogical, given that there is no history of Datu Tim NOT giving respect to someone he hosts at his school.

By the way, I don't know Tim from Adam, but by saying what I did, I in no way meant to infer that Tim would himself disrespect Atillo or that he had a history of being disrespectful. But after a few pages of Atillo bashing in this thread, to announce his seminar with this quote...

Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school...

...does make it seem like the environment might be a little open to trashing Atillo to his face. As a matter of fact it seems illogical to think that it wouldn't be. I wanted to say that Tim should make sure that Atillo gets the respect he deserves as far as his station in life goes i.e. him being our elder in the FMA and in age, specifically in guaranteeing that the seminar won't be a several hour bash session or a bombardment with a series of leading questions that will cause nothing but strife and controversy.

#3 In regards to the senior issue...Atillo is my senior. Because my teacher, Manong Ted Buot, is alive and well, I agree that it is not in my place to "put him (atillo) in his place," and I have said this myself previously in this thread. However, if it is proven that someone is lying, the "senior card" has lost all validity, in my opinion, and we can say/do as we please. However, since my teacher is still alive, and since I don't have all the facts from his side of the story, I won't be taking it upon myself to put anyone "in their place" at this time. As far as I am concerned, until the dynamics change, Atillo will recieve respect as he deserves from me. My teacher is still alive to sort out any problems regarding this matter, so it is not nessicary for me to confront him or his students.

I think that all of Manong Ted's students feel this way as well.

That opinion about lying and the "senior card" is mine as well when it comes to Americans and American culture. But when it comes to Filipino culture it's very different. It still holds for my peers and juniors, but Atillo is an old man. Being old has some perks in Filipino culture, one being you can say what you want, be it bola bola or God's honest truth, and your juniors still have to give you respect, i.e. not directly calling you on it to your face or in public. It would take an act of God or war to cancel that "senior card". What I said is that blasting Atillo to his face will close some doors for us over there in the PI, all of us, regardless of whether you agree with the culture or not. Respecting Atillo has very little to do with your teacher at all. Disrespecting him in an "in your face" style will make all us Americans look bad to some of the old timers in the Philippines. That is the danger and that is what I'm talking about. Even if you do get all your facts straight about both sides of the story, in the Filipino paradigm, it doesn't give you the right to put your elders "in their place."


I think it's somewhat funny here, but I think that maybe out of all of the people that are talking about this in this thread, I might be the only one that has met and worked out with Atillo. He talked about Bacon and he talked about his father. He talked about Doring Saavedra and his influence on Bacon, and his father, and himself. He talked about a lot of people, but mainly he worked on Eskrima. Regardless of who puts it on and how it was marketed, I still recommend going to a seminar with him. He's got good stuff to offer and it would be worthwhile to go and see.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Admin Note:
Thread locked pending administrative investigation.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just a note.

The Admin team is investigating the concerns.
Due to my affiliation with Tim Hartman, I am abstaining from the deliberations.

I have unlocked this thread so that the discussion of Balintawak can continue. I ask that everyone please focus on the art information, not the tangental issue we are investigating.

Thank you.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I think I understand this whole "successorship" BS now. It's a Modern Arnis fetish. "you are my successor!!!". "you are my heir". "you are my next in line".

You missed my point. You say that successorship is not in FMA, yet I'm able to site one example. And no, I'm not GM Buot's next in line.

I think the problem may be in interpretation of Balintawak Original vs. Balintawak-Modified programs.

I think the problem may be in interpretation of Balintawak Original vs. Balintawak-Modified programs. When someone said Balintawak I think of the original system, not a hybrid program. This is not to say that the other programs are bad or wrong. What I'm saying may not be an accurate portrayal of the system. I teach Balintawak to my Black Belts and I tell them this is a Hybrid program because of the Modern Arnis influences. I wouldn’t want people to thing my execution was the way the original art is suppose to look like.

GM Taboada calls his program Balintawak Arnis Cuentada because there are other influences. He is very good and I like what he does, but he is the first to say that his art has many outside influences.

:asian:

 

[Toasty]

Attn Mr Eccelston:
You have now pulled me into this little pissing match... I had said previously that I would not get involved with any further discussions regarding Balintawak on the internet, but when you make a statement like:
"While you guys wallow in this commercialized version of Balintawak, please remember that the guy who began this all, died a very poor and uneventful death. He never got a penny (or centavo) from this. Remember this while you're making money as a "Balintawak Successor"

I take that crap very seriously...I sincerely hope you are not refering to Manong Ted Buot with this statement?!

I would have you know that while teaching WITH Noy Anciong (as in when he wasnt present - not while he was in jail) Nong Ted did not take payment at all, but on the other hand guys like Villasin, Velez, Maranga, Mongcal & Chiuten all made $$ on Balintawak while Venancio Ba'con was alive & teaching in Cebu, but for some reason Noy Anciong didnt see any of this cash.

The following comes in no particular order, I am not going to quote everything you wrote...just my rebuttals:

Mr. Hartman is by no means the successor to Nong Ted, nor is he even a "senior" student, And he has never said he was, so get off that crap right now. (By the way, I have absolutley nothing to do with Modern Arnis, or any other FMA, I only train in Balintawak).

Bobby Tabmina was trained first by Velez & Villasin, then mostly by Arturo Sanchez (while Anciong was present), that info has been corroberated by several different people, here & in Cebu.

Bobby Taboada was trained mostly by Pilo Velez & Joe Villasin - actually very little time with Anciong, he has said as much.

This is not to say that both Bobby's are not phenomenal Escrimadors - I have not met either man, but I am quite sure they are GM's in their own right.

And, Noy Anciong was disappointed with the way GM's Villasin & Velez were teaching his system over at their club. He said as much to Nong Ted (and others), complaining that they had even changed his fundementals.



And this will be the absolute final thing I will ever write regarding Mr. Crispulo Atillothis part is more addressing what Bart wrote) As far as respect goes, what about his responsability to give his Elders (specifically Anciong) their due respect? He speaks ill of the dead (and living), & disrespected Noy Anciong in print. Then, when caught out, has his version changed by another student on-line.


The End

Rob

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Mr. Hartman is by no means the successor to Nong Ted, nor is he even a "senior" student, And he has never said he was, so get off that crap right now.

Thanks Rob. :asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

I think the problem may be in interpretation of Balintawak Original vs. Balintawak-Modified programs. When someone said Balintawak I think of the original system, not a hybrid program.

:asian:

Here is a clarification point which I don't think has been made. Manong Ted Buot had no other FMA training prior to training in balintawak escrima, only boxing. To my knowledge, I don't think he has had any other FMA training since being with Anscion Bacon, hence "original balintawak." Many of the others have had other training besides balintawak or have added things not taught by Bacon.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Joe Eccleston]

"While you guys wallow in this commercialized version of Balintawak, please remember that the guy who began this all, died a very poor and uneventful death. He never got a penny (or centavo) from this. Remember this while you're making money as a "Balintawak Successor"

The above said was for DATU Tim Hartman, not Ted Buot. I said this because I was pissed off that I was duped into a very unassuming little thread about Balintawak, only to find out that it was an elaborate advertising ploy for his “Atillo Seminar”. There are atleast 5 others who felt this way who subscribe to this forum, although I am the most vocal and irrate.

Since the beginning, I have always appreciated the information I have received from this forum. Because of this, I’ve tried to reciprocate by sharing information I’ve learned. My interest is in history and culture, not politics. I care not whether one is a Datu or a Successor of a system, or whether he trains with a Successor of a system. I’ve said my piece about “Successorship” in FMA, obviously DATU Tim Hartman feels there was and always has been “successorship” in FMA (or maybe even colored belts and titles?).

I, personally, prefer the cultural and historical version I have been told… That FMA, prior to it’s commercialization, was just about fighting efficiency, not lineage. Lineage leads to the deep BS we are now swimming around in. Lineage leads to more than 100 people getting the “you’re my successor” speech in public, only to bicker when the top dog dies. Lineage is a big waste of time. Lineage is politics. Lineage is business. Lineage is money. Lineage takes away from fighting efficiency. Fighting efficiency only asks one simple question: Can you fight? It doesn’t ask what your title is, or who you train with, or how many seminars you can promote. This is what Balintawak and FMA is to me.

So, when I get duped into an advertisement “discussion”, I get pissed off and make my opinion heard. I have found my little niche in Martial Arts. It is free from BS. And then one day, I learn that my little niche has been pissed on and commercialized.

"I would have you know that while teaching WITH Noy Anciong (as in when he wasnt present - not while he was in jail) Nong Ted did not take payment at all, but on the other hand guys like Villasin, Velez, Maranga, Mongcal & Chiuten all made $$ on Balintawak while Venancio Bacon was alive & teaching in Cebu, but for some reason Noy Anciong didnt see any of this cash."

And this is exactly what I mean by pissed on. You’ve successfully crapped on Atillo’s name in public several months ago. Now, you’re doing it again, by insinuating that they (Villasin, Velez, Maranga, Mongcal & Chiuten) are mere ingrates, to be disrespected. The discussion, up to this point, was only about an advertising scam, successorship, a seminar and about Atillo. There was no hint of even disrespecting these elders, or even mentioning them. But, you chose to do so. It was your choice to make.

Allow me to inform you about their side, as best I can (although you have already crucified them on the net, as you did to Atillo). Villasin was said to be one of the best fighters. He was an attorney, but had close to 15 kids, so he wasn’t rich by any means. Maranga lived in a squatter area in Cebu, his son Drigo is still there. Mongcal worked as a security guard, also of very meager means. Chiuten runs a little bakery in a small town in Bantayan Island, Cebu. Teofilo Velez was a salesman of various office equipment. Since I know more about Velez, and less about the others, I’ll tell you more about him. He died in the late 80s. He also lived in a squatter (slum) area of Cebu. He began with Doce Pares, until he was bested by a Balintawak fighter, at which time he devoted all his energy into training in Balintawak. He didn’t “make money on Balintawak”, because he was more passionate about imparting his knowledge to others. If Villasin was known for his fighting prowess, Velez was known for his passion in teaching Balintawak. If he did charge for his tuition, he would only do so for a few sessions, when he sees that the student is as passionate, then he considers all fees paid through their sweat (and sometimes blood). Velez never made money, because of this habit. But, then again, I guess money wasn’t that important to him, it was the art. So, he died a poor man. His sons live in a slum area. Nick Elizar, one of Teofilo Velez’s top students, also lives in a squatter area in Cebu, called Barangay Luz. So, as you can see no one really made money off Balintawak. Because in a third world nation such as the Philippines, no one would ever dream of paying for a martial arts instruction that would cost more than the next meal. So, Balintawak stayed as it is, a Club.

This is also true in the present. I began my training not so long ago, at 15 dollars per session, but as soon as my teacher noticed I was really passionate about this art (which was about 5 sessions later), he gave me a free ride. This is in keeping with Filipino, or Cebuano, culture I was told, since it would be wrong for him to charge me having equal passion as he did when he started out with Teofilo Velez. So, Balintawak had never been about the Money. It had never been about Seminars for 125 dollars. It had, and still is, always been about the passion for this Art. So, for you to sit there and piss on the Elders of Balintawak is sad to say the least. You did this to Atillo and now to the rest of the Balintawak clan, but again this was your choice. As Americans we tend to be very disrespectful, we tend to see things from our own cultural paradigm, hence you have successors, and lineage, and all this disrespect among people who have died. This was theirs to sort out, not ours. And especially, not ours to talk about in the internet!!!!!!!

 

[Cruentus]

As Americans we tend to be very disrespectful, we tend to see things from our own cultural paradigm, hence you have successors, and lineage, and all this disrespect among people who have died. This was theirs to sort out, not ours. And especially, not ours to talk about in the internet!!!!!!!

:shrug:

Does anyone know the sound of one hand clapping?

Nice net-speech, Joe. Too bad it's filled mostly with your viewpoint, and void of some major facts.

I PMed you my phone numbers, so we can communicate in a verbal manner, and so you can get the facts as I see them. Tim also posted his cell # here.

How about you call either him or I so you can get the full story? The fact that you haven't yet makes me think that your a net troll who is trying to cause trouble, just as much as "red blade" or anyone else with no info in their profile, and no voice to match the face.

So, is it troll and trouble maker, or is it genuine student of the arts?

I'll be waiting for your phone call.

PAUL
248-722-1634

 

[Dan Anderson]

Joe,

First of all for the info on the other balintawak master's history.

Second, I don't know if the importance of successorship is an American phenomenon or not. I do know that, having grown up in karate, we karate people got it hammered into us the importance of having and continuing a lineage, thereby make successorship very important. I, then, found this to be an interesting passage from Mark Wiley's book, Arnis - Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts page 131 -

Kung Fu students avidly seek genealogical charts of their styles because that is how they establish legitimacy. Conversely, the classical arnisador pays only scant attention to such charts. for the classical arnis master stands on his own abilities. He is not a master because he has received a certificate from a school, or because he has been appointed successor by a grandmaster. He is sui generis. (def sui generis - Latin, [literally of his (her) own kind], altogether unique).

I tuned in to this thread initially because I am also training with Ted Buot and being probably his newest student, there was some history to be found here by others who knew more. Although it has gotten heated, it has turned up some interesting history.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Tgace]

What is the "motive" behind all this successorship controversy?

Money?: Is there that much $$ to be had that this stuff is so "hot"?

Power?: Is there some sort of ego/self-esteem satisfaction to being top dog?

"The Art": Do people really care that the art stays "pure"

Mud Slinging: People just like to bad mouth people they dont like, and defend people they do?

Its probably not as easy as that...I know theres probably combinations of the above in any situation. Where does this @#$% stem from? Ive heard "The Fillipinos did this..." and "Japanese Systems did that..." but come on! A large chunk of us here are Americans. Just because I study a Fillipino Art dosent mean I live by any type of Fillipino ethos. Are peoples lives so hum-drum that they are looking for a little "soap opera" to keep things interesting?

 

[Joe Eccleston]

Does anyone know the sound of one hand clapping?

Nice net-speech, Joe. Too bad it's filled mostly with your viewpoint, and void of some major facts.

I PMed you my phone numbers, so we can communicate in a verbal manner, and so you can get the facts as I see them. Tim also posted his cell # here.

How about you call either him or I so you can get the full story? The fact that you haven't yet makes me think that your a net troll who is trying to cause trouble, just as much as "red blade" or anyone else with no info in their profile, and no voice to match the face.

So, is it troll and trouble maker, or is it genuine student of the arts?

I'll be waiting for your phone call.

PAUL
248-722-1634

My reasons for ignoring your phone call invitations are exactly for the reasons above. It would be a great waste of my time. Take what you can from what I wrote, but expect no phone calls from me.

 

[Joe Eccleston]

Joe,

First of all for the info on the other balintawak master's history.

Second, I don't know if the importance of successorship is an American phenomenon or not. I do know that, having grown up in karate, we karate people got it hammered into us the importance of having and continuing a lineage, thereby make successorship very important. I, then, found this to be an interesting passage from Mark Wiley's book, Arnis - Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts page 131 -

Kung Fu students avidly seek genealogical charts of their styles because that is how they establish legitimacy. Conversely, the classical arnisador pays only scant attention to such charts. for the classical arnis master stands on his own abilities. He is not a master because he has received a certificate from a school, or because he has been appointed successor by a grandmaster. He is sui generis. (def sui generis - Latin, [literally of his (her) own kind], altogether unique).

I tuned in to this thread initially because I am also training with Ted Buot and being probably his newest student, there was some history to be found here by others who knew more. Although it has gotten heated, it has turned up some interesting history.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

I agree, Dan... what was once interesting and informative has become politicized. That was a great quote by the way, and echoes the very point I'm trying to convey here. I too grew up in Karate, and I too experienced this whole "lineage" crap. This is why FMA is like a breath of fresh air for me, a completely different cultural perspective.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I agree, Dan... what was once interesting and informative has become politicized. That was a great quote by the way, and echoes the very point I'm trying to convey here. I too grew up in Karate, and I too experienced this whole "lineage" crap. This is why FMA is like a breath of fresh air for me, a completely different cultural perspective.

Joe et al,

I agree that lineage is quite new.

I agree that talent and skill and knowledge and courage should be what is rated.

Yet, I find it contemptable when people make up stories. No matter who it affects. I also find it funny that if it was all skill based then why does GM Atillo need to promote his art beyond saying here do it this way. Noy Anciong taught me this, or Nong Savaadra taught this to my Dad, Etc, ..., .


To Bart as to the Senior card.

I respect my seniors.

Those who are older than I.

Those who have trained longer than I.

I do not idle worship them.

And those Senior Manongs I have meet, never asked me to believe that the sky was green and the grass was blue, even though I am colored blind. I meanthis in no disrespect to my seniors. I am just stating that not all of those seniors agree that they have the right to make things up.

Hence back to what Joe stated and Wiley wrote and Dan provided here. It is based upon skill and capabilities.

So, I do not mean to insult anyone. I just find it hard to swallow certain things. I do find it much easier to see someone and to make an evealution on if I can learn from this person, based upon skill or teaching style.

Yes, one could take this as me trying to take my seniors to task. And for that I apologize. For I am not trying to take them to task. I am stating my opinion as I see it, and how I feel, and willing to live with the ramifications. If this means that GM Atillo does not wish to teach me, then I may loose out. I may feel differently if I did not have such an excellant teacher in my back yard, that has accepted me and is willing to teach me, and work with me to improve myself and maybe someday others.

:asian:

 

[Emptyglass]

" It had, and still is, always been about the passion for this Art.

Hi Joe:

This is well said as I hear it once and a while from my own instructor, Guro Bobby Ladra. He is a student of Grandmaster Bobby Taboada.

My question is what is this the big deal now about the original/modifed/purity/successorship of Balintawak. This was never a big deal before this thread as far as I can remember (please feel free to prove me wrong with facts here). Oh, but this thread was started by the as yet unknown Red Blade (currently under investigation right?).

Honestly, the only person I can remember talking about Balintawak up until the early 90's when I met Grandmaster Taboada was Rocky Paswik (not that I know everyone or have seen everything).

This all sounds like it should be taken with a big grain of salt at present with no disrespect to anyone.

At the end of the day, this is the internet and everything goes right?

Thanks,

Richard Curren

 

[Emptyglass]

Bobby Taboada was trained mostly by Pilo Velez & Joe Villasin - actually very little time with Anciong, he has said as much.

Rob

Hi Rob:

This is an interesting statement as I have heard that Grandmaster Taboada slept at the feet of Great Grandmaster Bacon on the floor while training with him. Perhaps my memory is off or I am completely out of my skull here but that sounds like pretty serious stuff to me.

This being said, I only know what Grandmaster Taboada's Balintawak looks like as the only other practicioner I have seen is Sam Buot and his students. <shrug>

Regardless of the so-called "purity" (not that there's anything wrong with getting your information from one source) I'm quite happy with what I'm learning and I wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone else who's interested. It's all good.

Best Regards,

Richard Curren