Questions about Balintawak

[Tgace]

At this time, in our opinion, its over. People can believe what they want. For those so bent out of shape thinking this is another 'Norshadow' issue, there is 1 important difference. Jerome Barber publically identified Tim Kashino and an individual named Keith (last name not known?) as Norshadow. No one has identified or come forward regarding "Red Blade". Until that happens, or new information turns up, this is where the mystery lies.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=52596#post52596

I can't tell you about the others but, I was in Toronto for a seminar with GM R. Presas and Datu Hartman was also teaching. At the end of the seminar GM Presas announced that Datu Hartman was one of his successors. If I'm not mistaken Jaybacca mentioned this in an other thread a while ago also.

R.B.

Perhaps Mr. Hartman remembers which of his students went to this seminar with him and he could narrow down the field from that.

 

[loki09789]

Deleted post has been restored.
* Note, this was the edited version, not the original which is listed in Barts post.

Based on advice from the vBulletin folks we found and repaired some small issues with the database.

There is not enough evidence to identify Red Blade at this time. The account has been closed due to lack of responce by the owner to our inquiries. If the owner contacts us and supplies the requested information, we will reopen their account. This is also not a determination that RB did anything wrong here, other than not respond to our request within a reasonable time.

The IP addresses used by Red Blade do not overlap those used by Renegade. They do however overlap several other members addresses here.
The addresses trace to AOL, Level3 Communications and Adelphia.
1 IP has 35 members associated with it, covering about 5 states.

At this time, in our opinion, its over. People can believe what they want. For those so bent out of shape thinking this is another 'Norshadow' issue, there is 1 important difference. Jerome Barber publically identified Tim Kashino and an individual named Keith (last name not known?) as Norshadow. No one has identified or come forward regarding "Red Blade". Until that happens, or new information turns up, this is where the mystery lies.

Yes, Jerome stepped up and said who was posting on Martial Talk under the Norshadow account. They were not suspended for sharing account info, Jerome was suspended for three months for account sharing. Paul Janulis made a direct and blatant threat and was suspended for how long? Before this turns into "Paul is bashing Janulis again" read this carefully, I am taking YOU to task for your claims and accountability here.... just exposing the darkness Bob.

I really didn't want to bring this up and was hoping that some reasonable, responsible behavior would show up. Unfortunately, Bob, that idealstic hope that martial arts training would instill something more than just learning a better way to kick and punch isn't holding true here because I don't see much democracy, fair and equal, or integrity going on here.

I wrote the below letter after a phone conversation over this. In that phonecon, I was informed that Red Blade was one of Tim Hartman's students who had, unknown to Tim H, been posting as Red Blade and had used Tim's computer from the school location. This time, Red Blade had failed to log out of Tim H's RENEGADE account and the intended post appeared.

*"I hesitate to write this with the positive tone of our recent exchanges, but I feel that I have to be honest here.

I thought about the explanation that you were given about this Renegade/Red Blade business and read through the posts. There really is no way that Tim H can claim ignorance in this from what I see.

Firstly, Red Blade - if a student/associate of some kind - would have probably discussed some of his/her posts in the course of class/social interaction at the very least. At the most, Tim would have introduced said person to the MT site and questions about 'what is your handle?' and discussions about common threads, topics and such would have occurred.

Secondly, Tim is an advisor and former administrator, if the account screening were happening as Bob has claimed, then the ID, or at least posting ID source as a Buffalo computer, Tim's Own computer specifically, would have shown up earlier than this and Tim would have been one of those from the board who verified new member accounts for those claiming FMA background.

Thirdly, the time hits for Red Blade don't jive with class times or regular business hours for a student/associate to be hanging around and asking for access to Tim's computer.

All that said, posting between Red Blade and Tim are very similar in style and length and even the errors that either come from typos or speed. Someone can ‘copy’ style, but mistakes are habitual and hard to mimic so closely.

Also, as you mentioned [edited/omitted by Paul Martin], Tim/Renegade either working with Red Blade or posting as Red Blade could be considered motive on Tim’s part to undermine Atillo’s credibility and reassert Ted’s Balintawak position. [edited/omitted by Paul Martin], the general Red Blade tone is to assert Ted Buot as the most credible and identifiable Balitawak ‘successor.’ That doesn’t seem consistent with Red Blade’s comment about reading an article and wanting to just verify info.

There may be some specific issues that can be disputed but the general observations can’t be thrown out.

Am I ‘judging’ Tim? No. I have my own skeletons, issues from my past. I will make mistakes in the future as well. I am writing this to let you know that this claim sounds thin, dishonest and – with the amount of bashing that Jerome took for basically sharing account info – this is hypocritical. Tim, as some have said about Bush as President, should stand up and take responsibility. I am sad that this kind of embarrassment occurs at all. Maybe the gamesmanship really needs to stop in general.

I hope that our bridging, decent communications and common respect – [edited/omitted by Paul Martin] – will keep your mind open to my reasoning on this issue."*

Now, either this stuff was true making the quote above by Bob a lie, or the stuff was a lie and was used to feed misinformation - in which case someone's own loyalties were abused. Either way, it ain't good.

Waiting to see where my dissent will be quarrenteened to....

 

[Cruentus]

Hi everyone. I haven't posted here in about a week because of how retarded this whole thing has gotten. But, since I am involved, and my name has been dropped umpteen times since my last post, I guess I better explain my perspective on things.

#1. Since Paul M. has mentioned it, I was the one who talked with Paul M. on the phone when Bart brought attention to what occured (and the thread was temporarily locked). I appreciate that Paul M. didn't mention who he talked to on the phone to protect me, but I have nothing to hide here, so I don't mind saying that it was me.

Paul M. asked me what happened when the thread was locked. I told him that it appeared that someone posted from Renegades computer, and that this Red Blade person may have been a student of Renegades all along. Why did I say that? Because this is what it looked like, and this is what everyone thought AT FIRST. However, the admins. still had to investigate the situation, so I DID say that I did not know for sure, and I DID say that we would have to wait for the admins to investigate before we could really tell what occured.

Now that the admins. have investigated, it would appear from Bob's last post that "Red Blade" has been traced to IP addresses in 5 different states, and that Renegades computer is NOT one of those addresses. So...apparently what I thought, and what many were willing to speculate, was not true. "Red Blade," at least, did not post from Tim's computer as many of us all thought.

I'll buy this for a number of different reasons, but mainly because I trust Bob, and the mods and admins here. If that is what they say happened, then I have no reason to believe differently.

#2. No matter what the Mods or Admins find out, there will always be people who will see "demons" (a term someone wisely used once) in everything that is done. There are some people who, for whatever reason, are on a mission to crucify certian others. For these people, no matter what happends, it will be twisted around in an attempt to attack their victim(s).

There is nothing I can do for you who do this, because anything I say will be seen as having ill intentions to you. All I can hope for is that onlookers will see the truth for what it is.

#3. I know that many people see me as a bulldog for the WMAA, and for Tim H because I have come to the defense of both when "under attack." I don't apoligize for any of it, as the times I "defended" I felt where justified. However, something concerned me greatly here. When "Joe E." thought myself and Tim H. "were of the same mind," I knew something was wrong. Another tip off was when I was blamed by more then one person for "defending Tim before the evidence came out" when all I really said here was don't attack someone until you know for sure if they are guilty. I'm seeing a problem that needs to be addressed; and that problem is that many of you don't see that I am my own man.

I don't know a more creative way to say it, but, I am my own man! Next year will be my 20th aniversary in the martial arts; 15th in Modern Arnis. And, although Tim has been a friend and mentor to me, and although I play a role in Tim's organization, MY instructor for Modern Arnis was Remy A. Presas (and NOT just for one seminar a year, like many others who claim the same). I have the right to my own opinons and views regarding the art (both "political" and "technical" aspects), and I certianly have them. I think that I need to help people to realize these facts, and I hope that my future actions will reflect what I am saying here to you. I can't do anything to change the past, or how you percieve me; all I can do is control my own behavior. I just ask that you keep an open mind.

#4 I also thought I'd let you know that I'll be focusing on doing MY own work to help further my art (Yea, that's right...MY WORK and no one elses) rather then Internet, "fantasy" crap. So, I'll be weaning off this thread and hopefully participating in B.S. threads like this one a lot less. Hell, participating in this one as much as I have has already made me feel "dirty."

Thanks for listening,

Paul Janulis

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Yes, Jerome stepped up and said who was posting on Martial Talk under the Norshadow account. They were not suspended for sharing account info, Jerome was suspended for three months for account sharing. Paul Janulis made a direct and blatant threat and was suspended for how long? Before this turns into "Paul is bashing Janulis again" read this carefully, I am taking YOU to task for your claims and accountability here.... just exposing the darkness Bob.

I really didn't want to bring this up and was hoping that some reasonable, responsible behavior would show up. Unfortunately, Bob, that idealstic hope that martial arts training would instill something more than just learning a better way to kick and punch isn't holding true here because I don't see much democracy, fair and equal, or integrity going on here.

This is not a democracy. We try to be as fair as humanly possible, and learn as we go.

I wrote the below letter after a phone conversation over this. In that phonecon, I was informed that Red Blade was one of Tim Hartman's students who had, unknown to Tim H, been posting as Red Blade and had used Tim's computer from the school location. This time, Red Blade had failed to log out of Tim H's RENEGADE account and the intended post appeared.

*"I hesitate to write this with the positive tone of our recent exchanges, but I feel that I have to be honest here.

I thought about the explanation that you were given about this Renegade/Red Blade business and read through the posts. There really is no way that Tim H can claim ignorance in this from what I see.

Firstly, Red Blade - if a student/associate of some kind - would have probably discussed some of his/her posts in the course of class/social interaction at the very least. At the most, Tim would have introduced said person to the MT site and questions about 'what is your handle?' and discussions about common threads, topics and such would have occurred.

If such events occured, I was not there for them. The other staff here are not students at Tims school, so would also not usually be there to overhear or be part of such things.

Secondly, Tim is an advisor and former administrator, if the account screening were happening as Bob has claimed, then the ID, or at least posting ID source as a Buffalo computer, Tim's Own computer specifically, would have shown up earlier than this and Tim would have been one of those from the board who verified new member accounts for those claiming FMA background.

Tim is an advisor. He has always functioned in that role, regardless of title. He did no moderation other than watching. He was never an administrator.
One of the IPs does coincide with a WNY member, however we don't believe he is RedBlade. We do not investigate members backgrounds. Simply put, too much work for too little ROI. We verify email addresses.

Thirdly, the time hits for Red Blade don't jive with class times or regular business hours for a student/associate to be hanging around and asking for access to Tim's computer.

Time stamps weren't looked at heavily due to the IP addresses not matching. If we were a city like Toronto, with a gazillion internet cafes it might be different.

All that said, posting between Red Blade and Tim are very similar in style and length and even the errors that either come from typos or speed. Someone can ‘copy’ style, but mistakes are habitual and hard to mimic so closely.

That may be true, but Tim is bar far not the only 'fat-finger' typoist here.

Also, as you mentioned [edited/omitted by Paul Martin], Tim/Renegade either working with Red Blade or posting as Red Blade could be considered motive on Tim’s part to undermine Atillo’s credibility and reassert Ted’s Balintawak position. [edited/omitted by Paul Martin], the general Red Blade tone is to assert Ted Buot as the most credible and identifiable Balitawak ‘successor.’ That doesn’t seem consistent with Red Blade’s comment about reading an article and wanting to just verify info.

The evidence does seem to suggest that. A counter argument would be that someone is playing with Tim. Or that someone with long standing 'issues' with Tim could be out to discredit him. (And before anyone brings up Dr. B., I will remind them that there are many other FMA folks also with axes to grind here.)

In the absence of a positive ID, a smoking gun, or some mysterious tapes, all we have is speculation.

There may be some specific issues that can be disputed but the general observations can’t be thrown out.

Am I ‘judging’ Tim? No. I have my own skeletons, issues from my past. I will make mistakes in the future as well. I am writing this to let you know that this claim sounds thin, dishonest and – with the amount of bashing that Jerome took for basically sharing account info – this is hypocritical. Tim, as some have said about Bush as President, should stand up and take responsibility. I am sad that this kind of embarrassment occurs at all. Maybe the gamesmanship really needs to stop in general.

IF! Tim is involved, then yes, he should have stood up and taken responsibility, even if only to say "My system was misused, I am taking care of the problem and it won't happen again". But should he stand up and take the fall for someone else when he isn't involved?

The agrument is that Tim needs to take responsibility. He should admit he is guilty...-even if he isn't-.

I will agree with 1 point.
"the gamesmanship really needs to stop"

I hope that our bridging, decent communications and common respect – [edited/omitted by Paul Martin] – will keep your mind open to my reasoning on this issue."*

Now, either this stuff was true making the quote above by Bob a lie, or the stuff was a lie and was used to feed misinformation - in which case someone's own loyalties were abused. Either way, it ain't good.

Waiting to see where my dissent will be quarrenteened to....

Paul, stick to this issue if you must debate it, and save the political stuff for the apropiate venues. There is your 'quarrenteene'.

 

[Tgace]

The evidence does seem to suggest that. A counter argument would be that someone is playing with Tim. Or that someone with long standing 'issues' with Tim could be out to discredit him. (And before anyone brings up Dr. B., I will remind them that there are many other FMA folks also with axes to grind here.)

I cant argue any of your other points, but on this one all you have to do is look at Red Blades posting history to see that this dosent seem likely. He/She was one of the most vocal critics of Norshadow/ et.al. and a recurring "successorship" supporter (brought it up fairly often) of Tim.

 

[loki09789]

Paul J,

Honestly, not seeing demons here as much as the inequity of work ethic in the investigation and the weakness of explanations. The point of the post was that there was one version of the story that you were told by those involved in searching and now the the official statement is about 'dynamic' sources (which haven't been listed as they were in the norshadow incident).

There are technically versed people here who are saying that the technical difficulty excuse is weak.

There are literate readers here reading the RB posts and the direction and intent of them pretty clearly.

There are changes in statements/explanations and investigation status that don't jive with each other.

There is the equivalent of mistrial by lack of evidence making this a 'cold case' when the key information (which, interestingly, was a public hit of Red Blade posting from Renegade account) was oops deleted by the very investigators.

There is a serious lack of details in the public statements abot where Red Blade did post from.

AND Red Blade is quoted as being a student of Tim/Renegades acting as witness to GM Presas making a successorship statement in Toronto - among other agendized posts.

Demons, no. Back pedalling and a lack of details, weak explanations and generalized comments without clear answers to specific questions, yes.

I am glad that you are interested in making yourself distinct and individual even though you are part of a group. That is the same message that I and others made in relation to some of the "Barber Camp" comments before - but were discounted. THe change in your tone from then to now shows some positive change, and a deeper sympathetic understanding of the points being made back then.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Point: There are technically versed people here who are saying that the technical difficulty excuse is weak.

I agree.

Point: There are changes in statements/explanations and investigation status that don't jive with each other.

I agree. But I believe the LEOs watching would agree you don't put everything you have out for public review while investigating, and might also release some misinformation as well.

Point: There is a serious lack of details in the public statements abot where Red Blade did post from.

AOL, Adelphia and Level 3 are the locations. Physical locations include WNY, Washington, Penn, Ohio, Virginia and parts of Canada. (I'm basing this on the listed locations of the accounts it matched.)

Point: There is the equivalent of mistrial by lack of evidence making this a 'cold case' when the key information (which, interestingly, was a public hit of Red Blade posting from Renegade account) was oops deleted by the very investigators.

Post was recovered and is visible now.

Point: AND Red Blade is quoted as being a student of Tim/Renegades acting as witness to GM Presas making a successorship statement in Toronto - among other agendized posts.

RB may be a students of Hartmans. May not be. It wouldn't be the first act of subtifudge used in a fictitious account case. (NorShadow also posted many misdirections as well. So have many others here.)


What more information would you like to see?
The IP's themselves?
The list of users?

It was suggested in an email I received that action should be taken "if the final data collection and information points to even a single instance of "renegade is red blade"

It did not.

Not once, not twice, not -any- number greater than zero.

I will ask again publically.
Do you want that list posted publically Paul?

 

[Cruentus]

Honestly, not seeing demons here as much as the inequity of work ethic in the investigation and the weakness of explanations.

"Yes, Paul Martin, but can you PROVE that you don't beat your wife?" (kidding of course)

You see, the problem here is you can't prove a negative. We don't know who this Red Blade guy really is. He may be Tim Hartman, Tim Hartman's students, or nobody affiliated with Tim at all. I think the IP's not matching Tim's prove that it wasn't him. I can't be sure that he isn't somehow affiliated with Tim, yet, when I look at the Black Belt and affiliated schools list for the WMAA, I am not seeing anyone who would/could be posting from all the different locations listed. If it was someone affiliated with Tim, it would be....odd.

But the logic that I am seeing is, "Prove that Tim DIDN'T do anything wrong! If you can't, then he must have been behind all this!" Well, sometimes it is hard to prove a negative. And in this case, you can't, unless "Red Blade" comes forward.

So, what do we know w/o a doubt? Nothing, other then that Tim's computer wasn't used, which works in his favor. That's why I think it is a matter of "seeing demons" or not, in this case. And...since I can't prove a negative here either, I just have to move on with my life, I guess.

Sorry....reality break.

Back to work for me!

 

[Tgace]

IP Spoofing???? I doubt Red Blade was actually posting from all those states..theres ways around IP tracking.

 

[loki09789]

What more information would you like to see?
The IP's themselves?
The list of users?

It was suggested in an email I received that action should be taken "if the final data collection and information points to even a single instance of "renegade is red blade"

It did not.

Not once, not twice, not -any- number greater than zero.

I will ask again publically.
Do you want that list posted publically Paul?

Bob,
You are obviously going to do what ever you want to, but if you wanted to post the IP's/use list, then you would have done so by now. What ever info you put up you do so of your own free will.

I would love to see the IPs/User lists publicly laid out. IF you choose to do so though could you break down the percentage/number from each of these 'dynamic' locations? If there is a pattern of Red BLade posts linked to certain events that corresponded, or a concentration of posts from a certain area that might be helpful as well.

As far as not one single instance of Red Blade/Renegade link: What about the hit that Bart posted as a quote that got this whole thing rolling?

Here is my suggestion for a reform to reduce this type of gaming in general:

Make it a policy to post using a handle that is based on your name, PaulM or PMartin or something like that. Also, make it a requirement that the profile info be filled out at least with the basic name, rank and serial number type of info with the option to let it be public or private, but at least it will be there for the admins to back track for just such anb emergency.

You aren't kidding this isn't a democracy.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Bob,
You are obviously going to do what ever you want to, but if you wanted to post the IP's/use list, then you would have done so by now. What ever info you put up you do so of your own free will.

I try to respect those individuals who have nothing to do with this witch hunts right to privacy.

I would love to see the IPs/User lists publicly laid out. IF you choose to do so though could you break down the percentage/number from each of these 'dynamic' locations? If there is a pattern of Red BLade posts linked to certain events that corresponded, or a concentration of posts from a certain area that might be helpful as well.

Here are the IPs. I've tried to ID the ISPs in question. I do like the percentage idea, however thats not something I know how to pull out of the logs.

Full list below. Here is where each IP traces back.
198.81.26.104 AOL
64.12.102.161 AOL
64.12.102.162 AOL
64.12.102.163 AOL
64.12.102.168 AOL
64.12.96.107 AOL
67.23.119.46 Adelphia
67.75.61.74 Level3
68.71.197.153 Adelphia
68.71.197.167 Adelphia
68.71.197.169 Adelphia

IP Address Search for User: "red blade"

• 198.81.26.104
  • Dun Ringill 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
  • Icepick 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
  • joeyp 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
  • Magua 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
  • Matt Stone 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
  • The 14th Style 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
• 64.12.102.161
  
  • bloodwood 64.12.102.161 [Find Posts by User]
  • ECYili 64.12.102.161 [Find Posts by User]
• 64.12.102.162
  
  • bscastro 64.12.102.162 [Find Posts by User]
  • The Psycho Guy 64.12.102.162 [Find Posts by User]
  • WhoopAss 64.12.102.162 [Find Posts by User]
• 64.12.102.163
  • Bill Smith 64.12.102.163 [Find Posts by User]

• 64.12.102.168
  
  • bloodwood 64.12.102.168 [Find Posts by User]
• 64.12.96.107
  
  • ace 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • believer 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • bloodwood 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • BRAM 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Cebu West 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Disco 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Dojo420 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • don bohrer 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Eddie Miller 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Grasshoppah 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Guro_Jeff 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • IMAA 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Jas 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • JDenz 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Kenpo Yahoo 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • KenpoDragon 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • KenpoIsIt 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • kevin kilroe 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • MartialArtsGuy 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Ma_Kuiwu 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Mon Mon 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • MovieBud 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Mr.karate 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • NYCRonin 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • progressivetactics 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Rainman 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • redfive 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Silent Nightfall 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • SRyuFighter 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • stickarts 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • TallAdam85 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • The Psycho Guy 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • theletch1 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • TLH3rdDan 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • WhoopAss 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
• 67.23.119.46
• 67.75.61.74
• 68.71.197.153
• 68.71.197.167
• 68.71.197.169
  
  • loki09789 68.71.197.169 [Find Posts by User]

As far as not one single instance of Red Blade/Renegade link: What about the hit that Bart posted as a quote that got this whole thing rolling?

That is an Adelphia address.

Here is my suggestion for a reform to reduce this type of gaming in general:

Make it a policy to post using a handle that is based on your name, PaulM or PMartin or something like that. Also, make it a requirement that the profile info be filled out at least with the basic name, rank and serial number type of info with the option to let it be public or private, but at least it will be there for the admins to back track for just such anb emergency.

You aren't kidding this isn't a democracy.

New accounts are required to provide us with a name and location. Incompletes are deleted. Old accounts are excempt unless there is a problem. There is still the question of proof of ID, something that is only possible if we require a credit card number and copy of photo ID. To do that would require we go pay only as its a bit more labor to do the proving.

 

[loki09789]

I try to respect those individuals who have nothing to do with this witch hunts right to privacy.

Here are the IPs. I've tried to ID the ISPs in question. I do like the percentage idea, however thats not something I know how to pull out of the logs.

Full list below. Here is where each IP traces back.
198.81.26.104 AOL
64.12.102.161 AOL
64.12.102.162 AOL
64.12.102.163 AOL
64.12.102.168 AOL
64.12.96.107 AOL
67.23.119.46 Adelphia
67.75.61.74 Level3
68.71.197.153 Adelphia
68.71.197.167 Adelphia
68.71.197.169 Adelphia

IP Address Search for User: "red blade"

• 198.81.26.104
  • Dun Ringill 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
  • Icepick 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
  • joeyp 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
  • Magua 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
  • Matt Stone 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
  • The 14th Style 198.81.26.104 [Find Posts by User]
• 64.12.102.161
  
  • bloodwood 64.12.102.161 [Find Posts by User]
  • ECYili 64.12.102.161 [Find Posts by User]
• 64.12.102.162
  
  • bscastro 64.12.102.162 [Find Posts by User]
  • The Psycho Guy 64.12.102.162 [Find Posts by User]
  • WhoopAss 64.12.102.162 [Find Posts by User]
• 64.12.102.163
  • Bill Smith 64.12.102.163 [Find Posts by User]

• 64.12.102.168
  
  • bloodwood 64.12.102.168 [Find Posts by User]
• 64.12.96.107
  
  • ace 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • believer 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • bloodwood 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • BRAM 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Cebu West 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Disco 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Dojo420 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • don bohrer 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Eddie Miller 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Grasshoppah 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
  • Guro_Jeff 64.12.96.107 [Find Posts by User]
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  • loki09789 68.71.197.169 [Find Posts by User]

That is an Adelphia address.

New accounts are required to provide us with a name and location. Incompletes are deleted. Old accounts are excempt unless there is a problem. There is still the question of proof of ID, something that is only possible if we require a credit card number and copy of photo ID. To do that would require we go pay only as its a bit more labor to do the proving.

I don't see where the IP trace backs are explained geographically.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I don't see where the IP trace backs are explained geographically.

Take an IP and do a traceroute on each one.
http://visualroute.com (I think) will show you the current location of an IP.

As Tom indicated, IPs can and have been spoofed.

You will also see several individuals under each one.
Using a few 'known, locations verifieds' as examples here (not suggesting any involvement or wrongdoing).
Ace is in NY
Cebu West is in PA
Whoopass is in Ohio
You are in NY.
Matt Stone is in Washington State.
etc.

Each IP is traced visually back to its location.
Each 'possible' (not suspect) account is then checked to see where it indicates origin. Some didn't match up, some have some regional drift, and others are flat out off. In the later case, an 'average' is taken amongst all of that accounts associated IPs to determine aproximate location.

This is different from where an account is the only one hitting a particular address, with minimal overlap with another. (IE users behind a single firewall)

There may be a better way, or better tools that I am not aware of.

Another sidebar, "Dun Ringill" is a banned troll that spent some time being a jerk in the Kenpo forums here and elsewhere. I believe at least 1 other name on there is also banned. Why wasn't the IP blacked? Because others on that same # are ok members.

 

[loki09789]

Take an IP and do a traceroute on each one.
http://visualroute.com (I think) will show you the current location of an IP.

As Tom indicated, IPs can and have been spoofed.

You will also see several individuals under each one.
Using a few 'known, locations verifieds' as examples here (not suggesting any involvement or wrongdoing).
Ace is in NY
Cebu West is in PA
Whoopass is in Ohio
You are in NY.
Matt Stone is in Washington State.
etc.

Each IP is traced visually back to its location.
Each 'possible' (not suspect) account is then checked to see where it indicates origin. Some didn't match up, some have some regional drift, and others are flat out off. In the later case, an 'average' is taken amongst all of that accounts associated IPs to determine aproximate location.

This is different from where an account is the only one hitting a particular address, with minimal overlap with another. (IE users behind a single firewall)

There may be a better way, or better tools that I am not aware of.

Another sidebar, "Dun Ringill" is a banned troll that spent some time being a jerk in the Kenpo forums here and elsewhere. I believe at least 1 other name on there is also banned. Why wasn't the IP blacked? Because others on that same # are ok members.

It is a shame that this spoofing, combined with the original post being deleted leads to inconclusivene mechanical evidence. As I wrote in the letter to Paul though, disputing one of the points (ie technical difficulty) doesn't discount the whole thing.

Considering that Red Blade has been on for a long time, this list seems a little short if each search hit is a spoof from Red Blade.

It is convenient though.

 

[Cebu West]

What did Red Blade do wrong?

NOTHING!!

The fact that Red Blade has not been identified is not a violation of Martial Talk rules. He has an old account and identification was not mandatory when the account was set up. Now that a software problem has come up it is necessary for Red Blade to be identified to the Martial Talk moderators. If Red blade decides to remain anonymous that is his or her privilege. If the account is closed because of this, that is also Red Blades right to decide.

The moderators have looked into this situation and have given an explanation. They run and oversee this forum and we should be glad they have identified this problem and corrected it. They also have cleared Red Blade and Renegade from any infractions of the Martial Talk rules.
So to the witch hunters who have been driving this thread with yet another attempt to discredit Tim Hartman, it's time to put this one to rest.

Continuing this will only reinforce the fact that the resentment over the failed Norshadow incident is at the root of your not being satisfied with the results from the moderators. You all thought you smelled blood and dove in head first.

The moderators have posted more than enough info on how they came to their conclusions and to continue this nonsense by feeding info for the whims of a few disgruntled people is nonsense. It's plain to see they will never be satisfied. Literary analyst, card readers, mystics, what's next? Maybe Sherlock Holmes.
It's time to move on. If you don't like the way things are done here maybe it's time for those who feel that way to go elswhere.

SAL

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I tend to agree. I've got nothing more to add, so at this point, I'm done.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

That was me posting from Mr. Hartman's account. I've been playing catch-up on MartialTalk for 4 hours now and haven't even hit the General area. It's all I'll accomplish tonight and I still won't get to the camp review. The new post markers help though. I am satisfied that I did nothing inapproriate in using his account with his permission while the site's owner stood behind me watching.

 

[loki09789]

What Bart posted, was not what I saw when I deleted the post. As was indicated, when (I think it was Bart) said, when they went to the post it had been edited.

I didn't get the notice that bart did, as I do not have this thread subscribed to, so I didn't see the original unedited post. Just what I stated.

I agree that the techie stuff would indicate a lack of evidence of who Red Blade clearly is.

This quote is what I come back to now that you have listed the IP's and such.

Logically, if the post you saw wasn't what bart recieved AND that when bart said he went to the post -which could have been construed as Renegade answering a question posed for Red Blade - that the account ID (regardless of the IP's/ISP's) had changed from Renegade to Red Blade. How did the "wrong quote" warning come your way, personal reporting or system notification? If it was personal reporting, from who? If it was a 'wrong quote' problem, I don't see an original post with that text prior to the post that hit bart's notification as Renegade, but was up on MT as Red Blade.

If it were a computer glitch where the system had mistakenly posted Red Blades response under Renegades account - how did it 'correct' without some human interaction? That would require access to account info like passwords in order for an edit to occur.... and it wasn't you according to the statement that you only deleted what you considered an oops.

The IP/ISP info only shows that the traces point back to Red Blade spoofing account sourcing, the evidence doesn't show that Renegade was one of them - that is clear. But we saw evidence that demonstrated access, not only to the IP/ISP stuff of Renegade but directly into Renegades account info as well, which didn't show up on the ISP/IP info listed. Even if you can say the Red Blade/Renegade overlap was a system glitch, the pre-delete edit speaks to human involvement - which really puts the computer glitch explanation in doubt for me.

I noticed my account was accessed. But, without the password - or the ability to change the password - the IP/ISP access only means that Red Blade logged in as Red Blade from my stuff. - which I find interesting because I use BlueFrog for internet access, but it wasn't listed as an ISP. If Red Blade had been accessing my account and posting as me, firstly, I would have noticed because of the password issue OR I would have noticed posts under my name that weren't authored by me - along with everyone else on your list.

Call it a witch hunt because of who it might point to, but the explanations/investigation results are inconclusive AT BEST. This is not the same as conclusively proving anyone 'innocent'. The other evidence of some misconduct is clear by looking at all the information, including reading the posts themselves.

This is the last I will say about this. Like I said, you are going to do what ever you want to do.

 

[Joe Eccleston]

It has become obvious now that we'll never really get to the bottom of this. This has now become a great waste of time. As for me, I feel a little suspicious now about sharing what information I have about Balintawak, knowing now that the reality of this word in Michigan and New York has become very politicized. When I first began on this forum, I was under the impression that Balintawak was this one entity, and those using this name understood themselves to be brothers in this Art. My only solace is that this Brotherhood is still very much alive in Cebu. Maybe people have reduced this art into "My Master is the Sole Successor" BS, I still hope that only DATU Tim Hartman and his followers are the minority here. This had always been about Skill, not Politics.

So, lesson learned... In the future, when we see the thread follow the same line as below:

Question 3
Did GM Bacon name a successor?

Yes, GM Ted Buot. This was done prior to Manong Ted moving to the US. This makes sense seeing that he was the ONLY person that was allowed to teach while GM Bacon wasn't present at the club.

For the record, if GM Atillio is in my are for a seminar I would go see him.

Here is your chance! Gm Atillo has been calling for a couple months to have him teach a two day training camp at my school. Last night we talked about the details. Sometime between August 04 - April 05 I will have him at my school.

This seminar will be open to the public and will be 10am - 5pm on the Saturday and 9:30am - 3:30pm on the Sunday.

The cost will be:
One day $80 in Advance
Both days $125 in Advance

No video taping allowed.

As soon as I can work out the details I will have them posted.

In the future, we'll just agree to ignore it. Lesson learned, Problem solved (atleast for me). :asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Greetings-

I’ve been busy the last week with my camp and I’m in the middle of the recovery process of hosting an event. I would like to make a statement about this situation:

I’ve been a member of MT since the beginning. I have followed its rules and when I did cross the line during the Moro-Moro era I was rightfully warned. I’ve played by its rules and will continue to due so while I’m a member of this forum.

I will answer a couple things that I’ve seen while I was running the camp.

1.

AND Red Blade is quoted as being a student of Tim/Renegades acting as witness to GM Presas making a successorship statement in Toronto - among other agendized posts.

Paul, here is the post. Where does he/she claim to be my student?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=52596#post52596

2.

Perhaps Mr. Hartman remembers which of his students went to this seminar with him and he could narrow down the field from that.

Why? So your group can go after this person like a pack of wolves. If Red Blade didn’t break any rules with his/her posting is there a need for the identity? For the record I didn’t bring any of my students to this event.

For those who question whether I’m Red Blade or not let me ask you this. After last summers Lamont Norshadow scam, do you think that I stupid enough to do the same? The funny thing is that most of the people who are accusing me of this are the ones who are part of that scam. They can also be traced to other mythical accounts on various sites including Joe Battler and probably Ernest Westbrook.

For those who have been defending me, it’s time to move on. Every time an answer has been offered the same people choose not to listen.

Here it is in a nutshell. You can look at my history and decide for yourself. I would rather be judged by my actions and not my words. My accusers seem to have nothing better in their lives then focus on me. I’m flattered to know that I can help them find purpose in their lives.

As always if you want to contact me I’m easy to get a hold of:
School: 716-675-0899
Cell: 716-432-0600
E-mail: [email protected]

I am now done with this part of the thread.

Respectfully yours,
Datu Tim Hartman
Remy A. Presas’ Modern Arnis
WMAA President