Tgace
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 7,766
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- 409
- Status
bart said:
This is arnisador, using Mr. Hartman's account again. I am using his account with his permission, because if I use mine then all my new post markers will reset and I haven't time to read all the fora I usually do. I want my new post markers to be there when I return home.
Speaking as the person who wrote the rules on this matter when I was an admin, I don't consider what I'm doing a violation. Of course, my opinion on the matter is now irrelevant. Mr. Hubbard is in the room with me right now--I could reach out and hit him with a stick!--and he concurs.
Bob piping in here a moment....it is not a violation as the use is not of a malicious nature. The key here is #3 "3- Purposefully violating the security of the forum or allowing someone else to use your account may result in suspension or ban.". Both Jeff and I are in the middle of a seminar, Tims system is logged in and so as to avoid a misunderstanding, loss of post markers, etc. we are identifying our usage as such. I'll address the rest ASAP, but at the moment have to get back on the floor. By logging in from here, this also avoids the possible disclosure of our info to the event attendees.
loki09789
Senior Master
arnisador and all:
this exercise in posting as is entertaining, but it doesn't take but a few more seconds of integrity to log off Renegade and log onto your own account, albeit from another site. As far as all the 'flora' that you will miss, that is the price of integrity and good character - it isn't the easy way, nor is it lazy.
As far as it not coming to the attention of the other members of the event.... if that is a concern now, could it also have been a concern before the event, thus a benefit of the inconclusive conclusion and the two day delay in any announcement of any kind?
For something that is firstly not proven or conclusive and secondly being presented as a possible computer glitch there seems to be a lot of attention/intention displayed to belittle the violation of forum rules by posting under another account. Funny how the rule makers are also the interpreters/regulators...
Post your results in a timely fashion, be fair in your punitive actions and share your findings openly and clearly and things will be fine. All this stuff smacks of defense of Tim instead of clarifying/identifying Red Blade before the results have been found.
this exercise in posting as is entertaining, but it doesn't take but a few more seconds of integrity to log off Renegade and log onto your own account, albeit from another site. As far as all the 'flora' that you will miss, that is the price of integrity and good character - it isn't the easy way, nor is it lazy.
As far as it not coming to the attention of the other members of the event.... if that is a concern now, could it also have been a concern before the event, thus a benefit of the inconclusive conclusion and the two day delay in any announcement of any kind?
For something that is firstly not proven or conclusive and secondly being presented as a possible computer glitch there seems to be a lot of attention/intention displayed to belittle the violation of forum rules by posting under another account. Funny how the rule makers are also the interpreters/regulators...
Post your results in a timely fashion, be fair in your punitive actions and share your findings openly and clearly and things will be fine. All this stuff smacks of defense of Tim instead of clarifying/identifying Red Blade before the results have been found.
Terse cuz, I'm beat.
There are more issues than this one being looked at. Privacy and security issues at the least.
The rules makers are the rules interpretors. Rules are regularly revisited and revised as this forum evolves.
Full results will be posted ASAP. We are waiting on several replies to inquiries sent out.
Now, I'm crashing.
There are more issues than this one being looked at. Privacy and security issues at the least.
The rules makers are the rules interpretors. Rules are regularly revisited and revised as this forum evolves.
Full results will be posted ASAP. We are waiting on several replies to inquiries sent out.
Now, I'm crashing.
OP
Emptyglass
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #165
Hi all:
If the folks conducting this investigation can't come up with a better explanation than what sounds to me like an internet version of "my dog ate my homework" I don't know what else there is to expect.
In the case of a conspriracy, there's no advantage to the Admins or Forum Mods digging too deeply, they might turn over a rock they didn't want to. Just hang back, blame the whole thing on data corruption or mechanical error and gloss it over until it's forgotten. Probably the best strategy in the case of something dishonest considering the circumstances.
Who knows, maybe it was just a data error. Personally, considering the circumstances, I certainly doubt it. Since the real Red Blade (if there ever was a single person who used that username and no other exclusively) seems to think they need to be as anonymous as someone on the grassy knoll, I guess we'll never really know.
Hey Red Blade, if you're out there, be a man (or woman), come out and clean up the mess you made. Explain to us witless, internet-riding fools what the real deal is and prove some of us wrong that you're not just an internet sock puppet.
Oh well, no one ever said anything was fair, right? Just like the rest of life.
Thanks for the opportunity to voice my opinion in any case. Just like the anus, everyone has one.
In regards to Balintawak, I certainly wouldn't thumb my nose at anyone just because their "lineage" didn't live up to some pre-conceived standard I had in my head. Good fighters and teachers are good fighters and teachers, regardless of where and how they got their knowledge. I certainly respect the skill more than the pedigree any day. If I need a watch dog, I'd rather have a smart and vicious street mutt who can do the job than an inbred, purebreed with a long pedigree who just rolls over when a burglar comes over the fence (Note: I'm not making a reference to anyone's instructor here, just making a general statement - there are great fighters and teachers out there with very honorable backgrounds and also people with huge pedigrees on paper that aren't worth a tinker's damn).
Thanks,
Richard Curren
If the folks conducting this investigation can't come up with a better explanation than what sounds to me like an internet version of "my dog ate my homework" I don't know what else there is to expect.
In the case of a conspriracy, there's no advantage to the Admins or Forum Mods digging too deeply, they might turn over a rock they didn't want to. Just hang back, blame the whole thing on data corruption or mechanical error and gloss it over until it's forgotten. Probably the best strategy in the case of something dishonest considering the circumstances.
Who knows, maybe it was just a data error. Personally, considering the circumstances, I certainly doubt it. Since the real Red Blade (if there ever was a single person who used that username and no other exclusively) seems to think they need to be as anonymous as someone on the grassy knoll, I guess we'll never really know.
Hey Red Blade, if you're out there, be a man (or woman), come out and clean up the mess you made. Explain to us witless, internet-riding fools what the real deal is and prove some of us wrong that you're not just an internet sock puppet.
Oh well, no one ever said anything was fair, right? Just like the rest of life.
Thanks for the opportunity to voice my opinion in any case. Just like the anus, everyone has one.
In regards to Balintawak, I certainly wouldn't thumb my nose at anyone just because their "lineage" didn't live up to some pre-conceived standard I had in my head. Good fighters and teachers are good fighters and teachers, regardless of where and how they got their knowledge. I certainly respect the skill more than the pedigree any day. If I need a watch dog, I'd rather have a smart and vicious street mutt who can do the job than an inbred, purebreed with a long pedigree who just rolls over when a burglar comes over the fence (Note: I'm not making a reference to anyone's instructor here, just making a general statement - there are great fighters and teachers out there with very honorable backgrounds and also people with huge pedigrees on paper that aren't worth a tinker's damn).
Thanks,
Richard Curren
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Hi Guys,
Now that this is an official food fight as to identity and rules, it would seem the easiest way for it to end is to have Red Blade come out and say who he/she is and end it all or have the thread locked for constant repetition. This looks like another Lamont Norshadow thing all over again, although it appears it's pointed in the other direction. I suppose it's better than getting upset as to who is slamming which GM but it's time to lay it to rest, folks, before the other forums out there start pointing fingers and snickering.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
Now that this is an official food fight as to identity and rules, it would seem the easiest way for it to end is to have Red Blade come out and say who he/she is and end it all or have the thread locked for constant repetition. This looks like another Lamont Norshadow thing all over again, although it appears it's pointed in the other direction. I suppose it's better than getting upset as to who is slamming which GM but it's time to lay it to rest, folks, before the other forums out there start pointing fingers and snickering.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
DoxN4cer
Purple Belt
Kaith Rustaz said:
Transalation:
"We make up the rules as we go along, and bend the rules for our buddies. We'll post the results of our so-called investigation when we get our stories strainght and not one minute sooner. Now I and the rest of the faction in WNY (and a few other out of state cronies) are going to have a few beers so we can do just that."
DoxN4cer
Purple Belt
Kaith Rustaz said:
I do.
DoxN4cer
Purple Belt
Kaith Rustaz said:
So the investigation is the investigation over, or not?
Should take some vacation time to go home and help you with it? Many hands make for light work, Bob. I could interview everyone who may have had access to Tim's computer(s), and really get to the bottom of things. Of course that would depend on the truthfulness of those indiviuals. In that case maybe it woldn't go anywhere.
Now as for posting on other people accounts... how do we know that it's really you and Jeff Leader posting on Tim's account? His access security seems to have been bybassed in the past. What makes this different? How do we, the public, know that it's not Tim or somebody else speaking for you and Jeff? Account sharing (mailcious or otherwise) is against your rules after all.
Tim Kashino
"When life gives you lemons, ask for tequila and salt."
DoxN4cer
Purple Belt
Gotta fly out for some business. Be back in a couple of weeks. It's been... interesting to say the least. I'll look reading the results of the "investgation" upon my return.
Tim Kashino
Tim Kashino
Somehow, the mental image of you in an inspectors hat, note pad in hand asking "So, where were you on the night of the 15th?" just made me chuckle. thanks.DoxN4cer said:
It was us. The rules are revisited and tweaked as we evolve. That section may be clarified as a result of other discussions that tie into this threads questions.
Dan,Dan Anderson said:
According to a different thread here, they already do.
I've gotten some suggestions on how to recover the post I deleted...I'm hoping to test the procedure on my test system Sunday. (I'd prefer to not work directly on the live database with unfamiliar techniques..as important as crucifying someone is to a few folks, their desires aren't worth me hosing MT over.)
lhommedieu
Black Belt
Dan Anderson wrote:
A long time ago, when I was living in a college fraternity, I was witness to the following:
My close friend, who may have been under the influence of any or all of the various substances floating around college in the mid to late '70's, was attempting to stuff several cats into a large double-sided picnic basket (no joke). As soon as one cat was caught and put in, the others....well, you get the idea.
Not that anyone here is under the influence, but this thread is starting to have an "Animal House" flavor to it. And yes - it is a topic for discussion on at least one other martial arts forum.
Since "Red Blade" hasn't stepped forward yet, it seems unlikely that he/she ever will. Time to move on...
Best,
Steve
A long time ago, when I was living in a college fraternity, I was witness to the following:
My close friend, who may have been under the influence of any or all of the various substances floating around college in the mid to late '70's, was attempting to stuff several cats into a large double-sided picnic basket (no joke). As soon as one cat was caught and put in, the others....well, you get the idea.
Not that anyone here is under the influence, but this thread is starting to have an "Animal House" flavor to it. And yes - it is a topic for discussion on at least one other martial arts forum.
Since "Red Blade" hasn't stepped forward yet, it seems unlikely that he/she ever will. Time to move on...
Best,
Steve
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
lhommedieu said:
Steve!!!
You mind reader!!! That's exactly the picture I had inmind when I stated food fight! An extra 50 points to Gryffindor! C'mon Red, show up and tell us to move on. Puhleeze.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
As long as the investigation is taking place, I demand you guys to look into Ommarosa's part in this! Justice, I say, dammit!
Suspiciously yours,
Dan
Suspiciously yours,
Dan
OP
bloodwood
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #176
I'm Spartacus
Sorry, couldn't help myself on that one.
Sorry, couldn't help myself on that one.
This is bart posting as bart with bart's permission...oh I almost forgot, that's what my name and avatar are for on the top left side of every single one of my posts.
For me, one of the major attractions to Martial Talk, was that it seemed that the rules enforced an honesty. Establishing honesty and the trust that comes with it is something that made this place an enlightening and enriching place to discuss things that we are passionate about. It made people with some actual stuff worth saying, more willing to participate in the promotion and development of the arts. By interpreting the rules as you are, the trust is being undermined and the environment is being despoiled. In discussion offline a friend brought up the Martial Talk Black Belt rankings. He posed the question: "Can you believe in Renegade's Martial Talk Master Black Belt ranking? You don't even know anymore if he earned it because at least 4 people have posted as him." So far it's Kaith, Arnisador, Tim himself, and an as yet unidentified party maybe going by Red Blade. My friend is right. And that's just the surface stuff. It brings doubt into everything that Tim says and as a matter of fact everything that everybody says.
Now I'm not going to stop talking, but I am going to continue to play by the rules in an honorable way. Fair play is one of those things that can only truly be enforced at the personal level by an individual to oneself. Assistance at the top end is helpful, but ultimately it's up to the individual to be that type of person. I for one am who I say I am every time my name is in the upper left of these posts.
Now onto this log in log out business, who exactly do you think that you're talking to? I used to work in tech support helping people of all levels of skill and intelligence to log in and out of web pages and different applications. It's easy and quick, the fastest two-step out there. The class of excuses that have been offered is ridiculous at best. Playing by the rules is more difficult than NOT playing by them. That's why it's a test of your capabilities and character. That's why any game begins to be a drag when you have a cheat, especially one that has impunity. To trade your honesty within the given rules so that your post markers won't be reset is a poor deal. To bend a rule for some while expecting others to follow it is at the least unfair.
I would suggest, that if you want this board to continue to grow and to continue to be a place worth coming to, then you enforce the rules the same for everybody including yourselves. we all know whose show this is and I can't force your hand, but as an active and paying member, I offer my suggestion.
For me, one of the major attractions to Martial Talk, was that it seemed that the rules enforced an honesty. Establishing honesty and the trust that comes with it is something that made this place an enlightening and enriching place to discuss things that we are passionate about. It made people with some actual stuff worth saying, more willing to participate in the promotion and development of the arts. By interpreting the rules as you are, the trust is being undermined and the environment is being despoiled. In discussion offline a friend brought up the Martial Talk Black Belt rankings. He posed the question: "Can you believe in Renegade's Martial Talk Master Black Belt ranking? You don't even know anymore if he earned it because at least 4 people have posted as him." So far it's Kaith, Arnisador, Tim himself, and an as yet unidentified party maybe going by Red Blade. My friend is right. And that's just the surface stuff. It brings doubt into everything that Tim says and as a matter of fact everything that everybody says.
Now I'm not going to stop talking, but I am going to continue to play by the rules in an honorable way. Fair play is one of those things that can only truly be enforced at the personal level by an individual to oneself. Assistance at the top end is helpful, but ultimately it's up to the individual to be that type of person. I for one am who I say I am every time my name is in the upper left of these posts.
Now onto this log in log out business, who exactly do you think that you're talking to? I used to work in tech support helping people of all levels of skill and intelligence to log in and out of web pages and different applications. It's easy and quick, the fastest two-step out there. The class of excuses that have been offered is ridiculous at best. Playing by the rules is more difficult than NOT playing by them. That's why it's a test of your capabilities and character. That's why any game begins to be a drag when you have a cheat, especially one that has impunity. To trade your honesty within the given rules so that your post markers won't be reset is a poor deal. To bend a rule for some while expecting others to follow it is at the least unfair.
I would suggest, that if you want this board to continue to grow and to continue to be a place worth coming to, then you enforce the rules the same for everybody including yourselves. we all know whose show this is and I can't force your hand, but as an active and paying member, I offer my suggestion.
Tgace
Grandmaster
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 7,766
- Reaction score
- 409
So, with these "new rules" in the works...will it be OK for me to open a new, non-personal ID so I can post some contraversial topics without it reflecting badly on the reputation I have attempted to build on this ID... that has my name, profession and location associated with it?
I believe that has been going on with a few ID's here. Im not about to make any accusations without evidence, but if you look at the posting history of some of the "bland" ID's here you begin to see some patterns of behavior, topic and political leanings...many of these seem to surface only when certain topics or people come to the center of attention.
I believe that has been going on with a few ID's here. Im not about to make any accusations without evidence, but if you look at the posting history of some of the "bland" ID's here you begin to see some patterns of behavior, topic and political leanings...many of these seem to surface only when certain topics or people come to the center of attention.
loki09789
Senior Master
bart said:
Bart,
Two things I find myself saying over and over here on this and other forums:
1. Integrity is what you do when no one is looking or the are seeminlgly no consequence.
2. A person's character is reveals more by how they act after making a mistake than by the mistake itself.
All this jumping on the defensive and techie excuses BEFORE (or is it after) a conclusive statement is made speaks volumes all up and down the food chain.... I have mentioned how the rep point system here creates an internet world of haves and have not in the past. So much of fair and equal/democratic voting power as reputation points Mr. Bush, I mean Hubbard, when you are the one who has the chance to exercise the role of leadership by example.
Dan,
Agreed, Red Blade ID needs to be revealed - either by the Admin or personally. It speaks volumes about your character that you are taking the high road on this even though Red Blade was one of the major critics of your MA 80 system and your rank within that system. How is the book work going? How about a book on Martial arts/instructor leadership philosophy with all this good presentation going on from you, I think thing like this fiasco show a serious lack of it in the trade as a whole.
Gentlemen,
I think things are getting just a bit ridiculous here.
We are now entering the realm of insults, grasping at straws, and attempting to equate ranks and karma on a martial arts board with reality. I think its just getting silly.
Deleted post has been restored.
* Note, this was the edited version, not the original which is listed in Barts post.
Based on advice from the vBulletin folks we found and repaired some small issues with the database.
There is not enough evidence to identify Red Blade at this time. The account has been closed due to lack of responce by the owner to our inquiries. If the owner contacts us and supplies the requested information, we will reopen their account. This is also not a determination that RB did anything wrong here, other than not respond to our request within a reasonable time.
The IP addresses used by Red Blade do not overlap those used by Renegade. They do however overlap several other members addresses here.
The addresses trace to AOL, Level3 Communications and Adelphia.
1 IP has 35 members associated with it, covering about 5 states.
At this time, in our opinion, its over. People can believe what they want. For those so bent out of shape thinking this is another 'Norshadow' issue, there is 1 important difference. Jerome Barber publically identified Tim Kashino and an individual named Keith (last name not known?) as Norshadow. No one has identified or come forward regarding "Red Blade". Until that happens, or new information turns up, this is where the mystery lies.
I think things are getting just a bit ridiculous here.
We are now entering the realm of insults, grasping at straws, and attempting to equate ranks and karma on a martial arts board with reality. I think its just getting silly.
Deleted post has been restored.
* Note, this was the edited version, not the original which is listed in Barts post.
Based on advice from the vBulletin folks we found and repaired some small issues with the database.
There is not enough evidence to identify Red Blade at this time. The account has been closed due to lack of responce by the owner to our inquiries. If the owner contacts us and supplies the requested information, we will reopen their account. This is also not a determination that RB did anything wrong here, other than not respond to our request within a reasonable time.
The IP addresses used by Red Blade do not overlap those used by Renegade. They do however overlap several other members addresses here.
The addresses trace to AOL, Level3 Communications and Adelphia.
1 IP has 35 members associated with it, covering about 5 states.
At this time, in our opinion, its over. People can believe what they want. For those so bent out of shape thinking this is another 'Norshadow' issue, there is 1 important difference. Jerome Barber publically identified Tim Kashino and an individual named Keith (last name not known?) as Norshadow. No one has identified or come forward regarding "Red Blade". Until that happens, or new information turns up, this is where the mystery lies.
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