Questions about Balintawak

[loki09789]

If it was an oops, and therefore you deleted it after reading it, you knew it was a problem. Especially if you read it within the context of the thread itself to identify it as an oops.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Let me start this out witht this statement: I am exercising my right to express my 'opinion' about this since the results have come out.

That is kind of a weak public statement.

Short, terse...exactly the kind to generate questions.

I'm going to hit these 1 by 1 here, questions in red, responce in blue:
Results of the investigation? Still ongoing

Who did the Red Blade account belong to? Unknown at this time, waiting on information.

Where were they posting from other than Renegade's account? Dynamically assigned IP addresses traced back to several locations.

How could Renegade reasonably NOT KNOW who Red Blade was, if Red Blade had access to his computer? It has not been verified at this time that it was posted from his computer.

Speculation: With a camp this week he's got alot of visitors in town. They are hotseating around his office PC. I use it often myself while at the school.

People talk about this stuff off the net too. Why isn't Red Blade (real person - not just the account) not being suspended for wrongfully accessing someone elses account - after lieing about information like training and location? 2 points here:
1- We haven't proven they deliberately accessed anothers account.

Speculation: If it was an accidental login, that doesn't constitute 'wrongful'. Tim like me, has explorer setup to log us in automatically. If you aren't paying attention to the user name.....

2- Lying to the public is not a policy violation. Older accounts were 'grandfathered' in and not required to 'ID' themselves to the admins, unless there is a problem. There is now a problem, so we wait on the information.

Why isn't Renegade being held accountable for not maintaining security control over said access? It has not been verified at this time that it was posted from his computer. If it was someone posting from Tims computer then he needs to get a better grip on his internal security. Trust me...this point will be beaten in regardless.

Who did conduct the investigation - that would not have a conflict of interest themselves since Bob opted to delegate it because of his conflict of interest
I provided technical research. I am now looking at the database and speaking with a programmer about the 'ifs'. The others involved are the non-wmaa members of the admin team.

In the past, and yes I am referring to the lambasting that Jerome took on this forum for essentially being suspended (3 months) for sharing account information, the details of investigations and and the suspended person's (Jeromes for the example) reputations of those involved have been paraded through the internet streets as nastily as the physical bodies of those contractors in Iraq had been just recently.

There is a difference in intents.
1 case was an extended series of event and self promotion, the other Q&A from a yet undetermined source.

If the reasoning is to 'take the high road' and try and manage this situation with dignity, I applaud such behavior. BUT, that would mean that those Moderators, Administrators, Advisors and MT staff members who represent the embodiment of the forum rules and are diplomats of the forum owe Jerome and anyone else who has suffered less than "friendly discussion" conditions apologies for the lack of dignified behavior in the past. Otherwise it will look like unfair and inequitable enforcement of rules and conduct on the behalf of those who are in charge here - much like the behavior in among real world rulers has been questioned.

The short summary is is that at this time, we can't see a policy violation.
*If its a software glitch, then it can be located and fixed.
*If its Tim playing a game, then he's an idiot.
*If its a student or visitor who used the system, then Tim needs to practice better security.
*If additional research determines someone is guilty of something, then it will be dealt with.

We haven't worked 3 years to build something to let some silly game playing rip it apart. We also live in a society that believes 'innocent until proven guilty'. There are some here who will not be satisfied with anything less than a 'guilty' verdict. Nothing I or anyone else here can convince you otherwise. Presenting the evidence to you would mean nothing - you will scream 'tainted'.

The worst part of this is, we've spent more time researching this issue, than the previous 2 combined. I'm as frustrated as everyone else that we can't point and execute and move on.

Trust in karma.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What are these dynamic locations? Who were the sharing parties - isn't that a suspendable violation? Traced back to a library? So, you're talking about a computer lab environment, and didn't the parties (Tim and Keith) posting as Norshadow step up. THere were also posts from 'dynamic' locations in that case.

Actually, the library issue was another case.

In the Norshadow case, after the offending account was closed, both were I believe informed they could signup under their own accounts. Tim did so (not certain about Keith).

What are the locations?
NE US and part of the lower Midwest US, with at least 1 access from the Vancouver area.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The opps in question basically said "wrong quote"
and that was about it.

In hindsight, if I had been doing much more than speed reading the thread to see if folks were behaving, yeah...the context might have been clearer.

 

[loki09789]

Official Statement
"We have completed our investigation of this incident and determined there were no violations of MartialTalk policy. The Red Blade account however has been suspended until such time as the user provides the required name/location information."

This statement implies that the investigation is over, not ongoing.

I am not looking for a 'guilty' only a reasonable explanation.

You contradict yourself in answering questions because in one, you say that lying is not a violation of policy, yet in my book lying would be 'disrespectful' communication - which is a violation of the forum rules.

Either from Renegade's computer or not, the post was from Renegade's account. Program error? Come on, I have not read a single post in the Admin support threads warning us that this has ever or that it was a danger.

If the log in was from Red Blade's own computer, they would have to log in, either automatically/manually with a personal account or intentionally access the Renegade account. How would that access be possible, unless, like you mentioned before, it was a mod/admin who had access the account and changed the password to steal the ID - but then the original account holder wouldn't have access anymore because of the new password that they don't know? That would raise some warning bells in my mind.

If the investigation is on going, then I will reserve comment, but from the above quote, it sounded done to me.

 

[loki09789]

The opps in question basically said "wrong quote"
and that was about it.

In hindsight, if I had been doing much more than speed reading the thread to see if folks were behaving, yeah...the context might have been clearer.

There was no quote in the post that has since been deleted. Refer to the Bart post that started this whole thing. Even speed reading, along with the 'oops' issue, the fact that Renegade was seemingly posting a response as if from Red Blade is pretty clear. What quote?

 

[DoxN4cer]

Tim,
Thats a bit unfair, IMHO...

Lets talk briefly about unfair, Bob. Now that somebody close to you, who by the way is a forum advisor and former administrator, has been implicated for breaking the rules of your e-forum. The same rules don't seem to apply as before.

I find it hard to believe that Tim had no idea that Red Blade accessed his terminal, and doesn't even know who Red Blade is. Paul martin has posed some very pertinet issues that rebuff the apologies that you and Paul Janulis have offered on behalf of Tim Hartman.

Nobody logs on to my system without me knowing about it. I'm sure that's the case with your PC and that of nearly everyone - if not absolutely everyone on the forum. The explanations I've read here equate to the ramblings of a child caught with his hand in the cookie jar and still says that he didn't eat any cookies... even with crumbs and chocolate all over his lips.

Back to fairness... The manner in which the Norshadow business was handled was very public and handle as delicatly as a jackhammer. This issue should be as public as the last. It should be just as openly embarrassing, but then again the person in question is your teacher.

Hey Bob, there are other martial arts instructors in WNY. You don't have to worry about pissing one of them off. You can always find another one.

I hold you accountable, Bob. You created this site. You maintain it. You allow things like this to go on, and you choose to cover it up. Don't ever condescend to speak to me about what's fair.

Tim Kashino
____________________________________________
"When life gives you lemons, ask for tequila and salt"

 

[loki09789]

There is a difference in intents.
1 case was an extended series of event and self promotion, the other Q&A from a yet undetermined source.
Trust in karma.

I think the number of posters who recognized the suspiciousness of Red Blade posts makes it clear that the intent was to create some defamation, character issues and political maneuvering...

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

This is arnisador (Jeff Leader) posting from Mr. Hartman's account. The camp opens in two hours so I'll be brief. While I was an admin, we had a situation occur where people's posts showed up under the wrong name. It was limited in scope. We found it and Mr. Hubbard fixed it. We didn't make a big deal about it because it was limited in scope, both with respect to number of users and in time; we didn't want to broadcast difficulties and raise concern unnecessarily; and there is always the concern that someone could try to exploit it somehow (possible security issue). My recollection is that we had to fix a quote somewhere manually but that that was the only publicly visible issue after the problem was fixed on the software side. However, if someone received a mistaken notice then we wouldn't have known unless they brought it to our attention. To the best of my recollection, no one did.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

This statement implies that the investigation is over, not ongoing.

I am not looking for a 'guilty' only a reasonable explanation.

You contradict yourself in answering questions because in one, you say that lying is not a violation of policy, yet in my book lying would be 'disrespectful' communication - which is a violation of the forum rules.

The willingness to disclose location is up to each individual. Publically stating something other than what we have on file is not a violation.

Either from Renegade's computer or not, the post was from Renegade's account. Program error? Come on, I have not read a single post in the Admin support threads warning us that this has ever or that it was a danger.

Its not. I said it is something that happened once (out of over 200,000 posts) to my recolection. I am looking at all options.

And...actually....how many of you folks actually read the announcements forum? Read counts say, not alot. Its not there, I'm just saying.

If the log in was from Red Blade's own computer, they would have to log in, either automatically/manually with a personal account or intentionally access the Renegade account. How would that access be possible, unless, like you mentioned before, it was a mod/admin who had access the account and changed the password to steal the ID - but then the original account holder wouldn't have access anymore because of the new password that they don't know? That would raise some warning bells in my mind.

If the issue is not software or hardware, then it would have to be 1 logging in and not logging out. That situation has happened in the past, often.

If the investigation is on going, then I will reserve comment, but from the above quote, it sounded done to me.

We are waiting on ID info.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There was no quote in the post that has since been deleted. Refer to the Bart post that started this whole thing. Even speed reading, along with the 'oops' issue, the fact that Renegade was seemingly posting a response as if from Red Blade is pretty clear. What quote?

What Bart posted, was not what I saw when I deleted the post. As was indicated, when (I think it was Bart) said, when they went to the post it had been edited.

I didn't get the notice that bart did, as I do not have this thread subscribed to, so I didn't see the original unedited post. Just what I stated.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Lets talk briefly about unfair, Bob. Now that somebody close to you, who by the way is a forum advisor and former administrator, has been implicated for breaking the rules of your e-forum. The same rules don't seem to apply as before.

The same rules do apply.

I find it hard to believe that Tim had no idea that Red Blade accessed his terminal, and doesn't even know who Red Blade is. Paul martin has posed some very pertinet issues that rebuff the apologies that you and Paul Janulis have offered on behalf of Tim Hartman.

I can not speak for PJ. Additionally, I am offering information and some speculation. Not apologies.

Nobody logs on to my system without me knowing about it. I'm sure that's the case with your PC and that of nearly everyone - if not absolutely everyone on the forum. The explanations I've read here equate to the ramblings of a child caught with his hand in the cookie jar and still says that he didn't eat any cookies... even with crumbs and chocolate all over his lips.

Right now, Tim has a camp going on. The instructors and some of the guests have been using the system there. The question of did Tim know say, I was using his system? Of course. Does he know if 'Red Blade" did, is a different question.

Back to fairness... The manner in which the Norshadow business was handled was very public and handle as delicatly as a jackhammer. This issue should be as public as the last. It should be just as openly embarrassing, but then again the person in question is your teacher.

Several hundred self-promoting posts make for a difference, as does a public disclosure. The Norshadow issue of which you were a key player was ripped open after a public admission of guilt by those involved. So far, we have speculation, no admission.

Hey Bob, there are other martial arts instructors in WNY. You don't have to worry about pissing one of them off. You can always find another one.

My art is Modern Arnis. The next nearest Modern Arnis accredited school is to my knowledge in Columbus Ohio and Philidelphia PA.

I hold you accountable, Bob. You created this site. You maintain it. You allow things like this to go on, and you choose to cover it up. Don't ever condescend to speak to me about what's fair.

Tim Kashino

Be careful on what you claim Tim. If you have proof of a cover up, then present it..otherwise, I suggest you withhold the libelous comments until the end.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Now, one small point I'd like to make.
I have tried -not- to bring up the Norshadow debacle, repeatedly. Everything that needed saying on that was said last July.

The short summary is that Dr. Barber, Tim K. and at least 1 other individual did conspire to both publically and privately assault Tim Hartman, as well as promote several events of Dr. B's including the Symposium. The "Norshadow" postings were primarily done by a single dedicated IP address from Dr. B's place of employment, as well as traced back several years into ED.

This issue here is we have -1- post that appears to have been posted under the wrong name, a question of identity, A question of intent and a question of promotion.

Why was it under the wrong name?
Under research, but we see no violations of policy here.

Who is it?
Waiting on information.

Intent?
Ya got me there. No clue.

Promotion?
Tim's always been rather blunt in his promotion of events. Burying it in the middle like this, doesn't strike me as intentional promotion. Poor judgement maybe, but not self-promotional intent.

As I said initially, the conclusion is that no violation of policy has occured.
We are looking into the user issues. I don't have time to dig through several gigabytes of logs right now as I'm due at a camp in an hour.


Now, all that said, I do have to get going.
Can we please save the character assassinations until we have more information to present?

 

[loki09789]

As I said initially, the conclusion is that no violation of policy has occured.
We are looking into the user issues. I don't have time to dig through several gigabytes of logs right now as I'm due at a camp in an hour.


Now, all that said, I do have to get going.
Can we please save the character assassinations until we have more information to present?

I think the confusion began with your statement that it the investigation was done, now it isn't. You had two days to dig through things - or at least those you appointed. I, personally, don't really care about the events in your other life that will delay this investigation further. You have made statements that you were done, yet the conclusions now seem inconclusive.

 

[loki09789]

This issue here is we have -1- post that appears to have been posted under the wrong name, a question of identity, A question of intent and a question of promotion.

Why was it under the wrong name?
Under research, but we see no violations of policy here.

Who is it?
Waiting on information.

Intent?
Ya got me there. No clue.

Promotion?
Tim's always been rather blunt in his promotion of events. Now, all that said, I do have to get going.
Can we please save the character assassinations until we have more information to present?

My reference to the Norshadow incident is not about the validity of the suspension, I know I digressed though. It is about the public display around it, the sharp and detailed research into it and the involvement of members of this MT forum who are also MT staff in some capacity lambasting Jerome over it about totally unrelated issues as well as the 'double jeapordy' treatment of it - administratively suspended AND public humilation.

Private issues, such as money (which through various posts it is agreed generally in poor taste to discuss publicly), business associations/good old boy networking.... were torn open regarding Jerome once the blood was in the water....

Now, there is a lack of evidence, a deleted 'oops' that is pivotal to the conclusive identification of RED BLADE (i.e. mistrial by screw up), and a reversal on the conclusiveness of the investigation (still haven't identified the non-wmaa members involved. There are other possible conflicts of interest other than membership in the wmaa - busniess, friendship...)

I am frustrated by the lack of "outrage" over this like there was over the Jerome/Norshadow issue. If it is a fox in the henhouse type of thing, I am amazed that there haven't been expressions of even more intense outrage than when it is an outsider....

As far as Tim and promotion - Red Blade posts don't just point to a promotion opportunity of events (which I don't really care about), but of Tim himself and his status in Martial arts over others for what ever reason. Red Blade has a habit of connecting dots 1-19 out of 20 on these types of things.

 

[tshadowchaser]

This is arnisador (Jeff Leader) posting from Mr. Hartman's account. The camp opens in two hours so I'll be brief. While I was an admin, we had a situation occur where people's posts showed up under the wrong name. It was limited in scope. We found it and Mr. Hubbard fixed it. We didn't make a big deal about it because it was limited in scope, both with respect to number of users and in time; we didn't want to broadcast difficulties and raise concern unnecessarily; and there is always the concern that someone could try to exploit it somehow (possible security issue). My recollection is that we had to fix a quote somewhere manually but that that was the only publicly visible issue after the problem was fixed on the software side. However, if someone received a mistaken notice then we wouldn't have known unless they brought it to our attention. To the best of my recollection, no one did.This is arnisador (Jeff Leader) posting from Mr. Hartman's account. The camp opens in two hours so I'll be brief. While I was an admin, we had a situation occur where people's posts showed up under the wrong name. It was limited in scope. We found it and Mr. Hubbard fixed it. We didn't make a big deal about it because it was limited in scope, both with respect to number of users and in time; we didn't want to broadcast difficulties and raise concern unnecessarily; and there is always the concern that someone could try to exploit it somehow (possible security issue). My recollection is that we had to fix a quote somewhere manually but that that was the only publicly visible issue after the problem was fixed on the software side. However, if someone received a mistaken notice then we wouldn't have known unless they brought it to our attention. To the best of my recollection, no one did.

My computer is sometimes used by myslef and my two sons, all of us belong to MT, as well as people that visit me that may belong to MT. Yes, there have been a couple of times when one of us has inadvertently posted under someones elses login name. We contacted Kaith and the other admins. to correct the problem or immidatly deleted the post and reloged in to post under the correct name. It happens sometimes when multiple users are on the same computer durring a short period of time. ( My problem solved my sons now have there own places)
Speaking as a member of the forum not as as mod I ask that we give this issue a rest untill RED BLADE identifies himslef properly . If not he/she is suspended and will not be posting anyways.
Any posts I have ever read here by Mr. Hartman have been open and above board. He speaks for himslef rather well, weither agreeing , disagreeing or explaining a situation or question. Now I have never met him so I am not under the influence of him or his organisation so this is a personal view based on my time in the forum.
Now I have a couple questions on Balintawak. What seems to be the most effective fighting range in this system? is it close where locks and fininshing moves can be applied or is it a mid range art where sliceing and diceing are most effective? Is there one blade that is preferred by the students or is it an individual thing where some use the short (3-6) blade while other prefer to use the longer blades all the time? We have seen from the given history that Balintawak derived from another art or a combination of arts taught by varrious teachers then put togeather again as one art, so my question is are there any major arts still being taught today that have grown out of this system. (This last question is for information and knowledge only not to start anything)
Sheldon

 

[bart]

We have seen from the given history that Balintawak derived from another art or a combination of arts taught by varrious teachers then put togeather again as one art, so my question is are there any major arts still being taught today that have grown out of this system. (This last question is for information and knowledge only not to start anything)
Sheldon

Balintawak grew out of the Doce Pares club. Doce Pares had many factions or sub-clubs within the main club and so had many distinct styles within it. Before GM Bacon split from Doce Pares, his style was one of the factions within Doce Pares. Since that time, Doce Pares has continued to exist and has evolved in many different directions, some of those are the styles of GM Momoy, GM Cacoy, and GM Diony.

 

[Tgace]

Why is it gone? Because, dumb *** that -I- am, when I saw it it basically said 'whoops' so I deleted it to keep the thread cleaner. (I usually do delete the 'opps' typs posts when I come across them) At the time, I wasn't aware of a problem.

Im hoping to keep my speculations out of this whole thing...but you have to admit that this kinda seems a little suspicious. I do give you a lot of credit for coming out and admitting it though. If there was some sort of "cover-up" going on you didnt have to admit that at all.

 

[Joe Eccleston]

I guess since the investigation is still ongoing... we'll just sit and wait, until there's a definitely resolution.

 

[bart]

This is arnisador (Jeff Leader) posting from Mr. Hartman's account. The camp opens in two hours so I'll be brief.

Account Policy:
1- One account per member
2- Keep your account information private (password).
3- Purposefully violating the security of the forum or allowing someone else to use your account may result in suspension or ban.

I'm not sure, but doesn't this seem to be a violation right there? Why would arnisador log in as Tim? Of course to show that it can be done, but isn't it a violation of the board's policy as stated above? Seemingly, it only applies to a select few. I don't mean to snipe, but it certainly appears unfair for someone to post as another person and get grief and then for another to violate the rules and escape unscathed. I want to state again that I don't want a user banned, but I think the rules should be adhered to by all parties.