Offical Ryu Ha studies & Ranking!

[EWBell]

Ninpo81,

Whoever told you such a story is wrong, plain and simple. Tamemura Soke received menkyo kaiden in all of the ryu-ha in the Bujinkan, with the exception of Kumogakure Ryu and Gyokushin Ryu. His Gikan Ryu liscense comes through Sato Kinbei sensei, and he has shown the actual scrolls before as well. Tanemura Soke also received a menkyo kaiden from Fukumoto Yoshio sensei in Togakure Ryu, which means he has TWO menkyo kaiden in that ryu. No one is being misguided about Tanemura Soke's right to issue liscenses in what he does. Also, Tanemura Soke was never dismissed from the Bujinkan, instead he resigned on his own accord. This is well documented, and you need to tell whoever is spouting forth such stories that they are wrong.

As far as being only 8th dan, remember there was no such thing as a "15th" dan in those days, plus if you have already obtained menkyo kaiden in the individual ryu-ha, then the dan rank means next to nothing. You've already received a full transmission of the schools with menkyo kaiden, and are authorized to even start your own branch, hence the Tanemura-ha.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Sigh...

Have actually done any research on this, or is this just something that someone told you, sometime.

First of all, Tanemura sensei received menkyo kaiden in several ryuha from Hatsumi sensei before he resigned.
Second, after Tanemura left, he sought out other students from Takamatsu sensei, and received menkyo kaiden and sokeship in the arts that were passed from Takamatsu sensei to his other students.
Third, pictures of the scrolls of Tanemura sensei are visible on the Genbukan website.
Fourth, there has been at least one court case during which the scrolls from Tanemura were examined and validated.

But fifth and most important: don't you think it is pretty bad taste to barge in here with your first post, spouting nonsense about something of which you have no clue?

Do you think you are really the first one to do this, and that now we will say 'Geez. How did I not know this. I'll resign my Genbukan membership at once'.
And don't you think that many among us actually did the research that you didn't?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Additionally, you clearly don't know that dan grades in bujinkan (or any xkan) have no bearing on your level in the individual ryuha of which the xkans are comprised.

Tanemura sensei did have 8th dan in the bujinkan system while at the same time having menkyo kaiden in individual ryuha.

 

[EWBell]

Well the frustrating thing is one doesn't have to do THAT much research to find the truth on this. Obviously there are some idiots, regardless of rank, who are perpetuating falsehoods about Tanemura Soke. I personally get tired of the "someone told me, but I'm not going to say who," thing. If they are spouting off such things, then they should have the guts to stand behind it.

 

[Yugen]

This was a very nice thread, and I would like to thank Wideman Kyoshi for being so open and generous in sharing his knowledge.

A few years ago, Soke posted the following on the honbu website:
[Tanemura's former teacher Hatsumi]
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=790
It explains a few things...

Also I would like to say that the Genbukan is quite a unique school with teachings of an incredible depth and beauty. I suggest if people really are interested, take advantage of the opportunity presented here to ask questions in a respectful manner from Soke's senior instructors.

Best wishes,
Bard

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hello Ninpo81<

Well your information is definitely very wrong. No need to get angry at you, you are probably new to the art and have not been told the correct information. Some of us here, have been around since the 80's and have been through the wars that happened between both org's. Both organizations teach authentic ninpo and both Soke's are master's of their respective arts. Some of the ryu ha are of the same name but a different lineage. If you dig deep enough on the internet you can find out the true details.
Back in the 80's the highest rank that was in the Bujinkan was 8th Dan, at the time Doron was only a 5th Dan and the only foreigner to hold the kyoshi rank. Tanemura Sensei received Menkyo Kaiden in all the ryu ha from Hatsummi Sensei. This means that you have mastered each system. The holder of menkyo kaiden is within his rights to then name the style as such; Shinden Fudo Ryu Daken Taijutsu - Tanemura Ha Soke.
Tanemura sensei did search out other teachers that had trained with Takamatsu sensei before Hatsummi Sensei and some of these teacher were issued Ryu Ha that were Ninpo ie: Fukumoto Sensei - Togakure Ninpo.
IF you do a little bit more research, then what you say you have done, you will find all this out for yourself.
IF you are a Bujinkan member I wish you luck in your training. Even though we are in different org's it does not mean we cannot be friendly to each other. We are connected to the same source, so in a sense related.
IF you are happy with the Bujinkan then that is great, you need to trust your Soke and your sensei and just keep going. Do not get caught up in all the who holds what lineage. I have been doing this a long time and it is still even confusing for me. hahhaha.

Anyways all the best in your research because it will take hours of it.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hahhaha, just reread my post, thats incorrect information. What you get for typing out a post fast while working, looking after a little girl and running a martial arts club, hahaha.

Troy

 

[Bruno@MT]

What part of it is not correct?
Because most of it is consisent with what I've found on my own.

 

[Troy Wideman]

Ninpo81 whole statement is incorrect.

Troy

 

[Bruno@MT]

Ninpo81 whole statement is incorrect.

Troy

Ah.

I thought you meant that your statement was incorrect. Which would have surprised me which is why I asked Thanks.

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Bruno,

Ahhh, thats why I stay away from posting alot. I am in such a rush sometimes I never read my message before I send it. It is hard enough just trying to work on the ranks I am working on and manage life in general. Takes alot of time to follow these forums. Are you coming to the Canadian Tai Kai.

Kind Regards,

Troy

 

[George Kohler]

I do not wish to start any arguments about this, but I would like to state that I was told and by whom I will NOT say, that Tanemura never finished his training when he was expelled from the Bujinkan for bad behavior.

Here is a real source for you and not just "hear say."

Ninja Magazine #25, November 1987, page 36, Ninjutsu's Other Master - Shoto Tanemura and the Rise of the Genbukan, by Tsabar Erem

In 1977 Tanemura established a metropolitan police ninpo club. .......

The following year was a fulfilling one for Tanemura as this was the year he received the Togakure-ryu menkyo kaiden. ..........
In succeeding years he received the menkyo kaiden rank in other arts of which Hatsumi is soke (leader) and decided, after much encouragement from Hatsumi, to retire form the police department and devote his time solely to ninpo.

So the following year means in 1978 he received menkyo kaiden in Togakure-ryu.

Hope this helps.

Kind Regards,
George Kohler

 

[Troy Wideman]

Ninpo81<

We have not heard a response back from you. Have we set you straight or do we need to provide you with more information.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[George Kohler]

So the following year means in 1978 he received menkyo kaiden in Togakure-ryu.

I should also note, as per the Genbukan Honbu website (http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura1), at the age of twenty Tanemura Sensei received menkyo kaiden for Shinden Fudo-ryu and Kukishin-ryu. Since he is born in 1947, that would make the date either 1967 or 1968.

Also, it would be incorrect to also assume that he was expelled since there are records and photo-copies of his resignation, which can also be found on the Genbukan Honbu website (http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=790).

Kind Regards,

 

[Bruno@MT]

Hi Bruno,
Are you coming to the Canadian Tai Kai.
Kind Regards,
Troy

Hi Troy,
No, I won't be there. A trip to Canada is a bit expensive.
There is a taikai in Ireland this summer, but it focuses on the spiritual aspects of ninpo so it is not yet that useful to me.

April next year there is a taikai (Togakure-Ryu) in Germany that I may go to.
And of course, I hope that there will be one in Belgium again soon.

 

[Ninpo81]

Perhaps I am incorrect. I am sorry if I angered anyone.
I'm not going to justify my statement by giving up my source or responding in the normal no your wrong, he's wrong, there all wrong dramatics.

I will apologize if I have angered or disturbed anyone. I was only trying to help. I found this post looking for an answer to a question of my own. I thought that I was helping by posting, perhaps I was wrong to say anything.

My intentions we're to help not harm. Even if I agree or disagree with anything that has been said in response to my statement. Perhaps even I have mixed up the facts a little (unintentionally). It's been awhile since I was told about these things. I don't want to start up wars and round up rumors and gossip. It's disrespectful to all involved and unneeded. So I just wanted to say sorry and I hope everyone can let this go and go about their business.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi, Ninpo81,

Thanks for your response. That was a very mature way to answer. For the record, I would suggest that perhaps there may have been some mis-communication at some point, or possibly some somewhat skewed information given to you at some point, as each and every other response you have recieved is correct.

But that is one part of why these forums exist, to correct misinformation and generate true debate. You should be congratulated on your ability to take these answers in the spirit in which they were given.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Perhaps I am incorrect. I am sorry if I angered anyone.

Thanks. Anyone can make a mistake. Making mistakes is not a shame if you can admit it. No harm no foul.

So I take it you are a member of Bujinkan?

 

[George Kohler]

Perhaps I am incorrect. I am sorry if I angered anyone.

Ninpo81,

Thank you for your post. Just for the record, I was not upset or angered by your post. Posts like these come about once a year, so nothing new.

Anyway, thank you for your apology.

Kind Regards,

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Ninpo81<

No worries, sometimes a statement like you made can illicit some responses that bring about some enlightment about some things. I would suggest you ask George on this site if you have questions about the history and lineage, he is an encyclopedia when it come to these ryu ha. All the best in your training.

Kind Regards,

Troy