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Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Bob Hubbard, Jun 28, 2004.

  1. Raynac

    Raynac Green Belt

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    really!? oh... but this is under the ninjutsu section not japanese arts(of course I realize it IS a japanese art)... oh well i trust you know what your talking about =(.

    awwww but i like the ninjutsu section so much, now I feel like I've lost my connection with it.. :lisafault:
     
  2. Raynac

    Raynac Green Belt

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    ohh lol well i got to look at those forum heading better ninjutsu is a subheading not the main one. whoops
     
  3. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    Well, ya know... Nevermind. I will stick by Thumper's advice.
     
  4. shirobanryunotora

    shirobanryunotora Yellow Belt

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    Hi Mr.B.Hubbard-was going through the sites older data in regards to history and lineages-noticed that Kizaru 26/9/2004 3.10am had the opinion that Iga/Koga ryu died out with Fujita Seiko etc-however the data i have on this ryu is that this was not correct-my data indicates that 14th Soke Fujita Seiko who had a dojo in the tokyo suburb of Nezu passed on the Soke title to a Mr.Heishichoro Okuse 15th Soke(he later became the Mayor of Iga btw)who in turn passed it on to a Mr.Kazuo Saito 16th Soke whom i believe is still living today? The originals of this data is/was? deposited in the Fujita Bunko(library) at the Ninja Museum in Iga Ueno suburb.Sections of this data were reprinted in the Blitz MA magazine Dec/Jan 1993/4 issue.Am not sure of the validity of this data-just thought would bring it to you attention. Also have some info that indicates Mr.K.Saito was a Japanese Sumo champion of some nature though not sure if this is same person etc. Anyway thought you might find the above intreresting-till the next rr
     
  5. Dean Whittle

    Dean Whittle Yellow Belt

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    Robert,

    You'll find that information is not only out of date, but completely incorrect.

    For a more accurate account of Fujita Seiko's life and legacy look at http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/ and perhaps buy the book.

    With respect
     
  6. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    Koga Ryu Wada-ha died with Fujita Seiko.
    He did have a school and he did pass on several arts for which he was soke (3 IIRC) but not his Koga Ryu lineage. At least not according to the biography written by Philip T Hevener. And having read the biography, I have to say the ending of that particular lineage fits with the ideas and principles he had.

    More recently, Jinichi Kawakami sensei claims to teach a Koga Ryu lineage, which may be true. At least to me, the information I have seems plausible enough to give it the benefit of the doubt.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2011
  7. shirobanryunotora

    shirobanryunotora Yellow Belt

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    Hi-sure and will check it out though am unsure how info dealing with history can be "out of date" exactly? Imo just because info is considered by some to be old/outdated does not mean it is not relevant esp. in regards to events/MAs that are inherently old anyway(from our point of view)-otherwise whats the point in studying any of the old texts/books on any subject or the likes of the old/out of date bujinkan scrolls & etc for example in regards to ninpo?? It sometimes may be that the only data available is "out of date" but i for one am not going to disregard or ignore it solely because of that factor.The study of any olden tradition or culture often relies heavily on such data and the only new thing is the current interpretation of that data.Hope this explains my view and appreciate the tip about the book-till the next rr
     
  8. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Robert, I'm going to send you a PM about Saito, as this site does not endorse or engage in fraudbusting. I just need to clear some room first, so give me a bit.

    But, to answer your question as to how your history can be "out of date", new facts can come to light which expose certain claims as incorrect. Putting it incredibly gently, this is a case like that. The other way it can be out of date is that incorrect ideas (such as your idea that Tanemura was a student of Takamatsu's before Hatsumi was as you didn't realise that Hatsumi was refering to Ueno Takashi, who taught him Asayama Ichiden Ryu and Bokuden Ryu, as well as a line of Shinden Fudo Ryu and so on) are accepted, and then corrected when better information comes to light.

    EDIT: Just starting to write out your PM, and something struck me. As Dean said, there is a lot that is incorrect in your post, and the very Ryu you are refering to is one. Fujita Seiko was the last head of the Wada-ha Koga Ryu, nothing to do with the (or any) Iga Ryu. Okuse Heishichiro was the former mayor of Iga-Ueno, no connection to the Koga Ryu or Iga Ryu (other than the museum there featuring both Iga and Koga exhibits), and Saito Kazuo claimed to be the head of the Iga Ryu (more on that in the PM). So the Ryu themselves don't even match up in your version, which should be the first clue.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2011
  9. shirobanryunotora

    shirobanryunotora Yellow Belt

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    hi-just to be clear-the data i gave is not my version nor my history-as stated in the text it came from Blitz magazine-i was just passing on the data for others to check out and discuss etc on this discussion forum-so correcting and lecturing me seems little more than "shooting the messenger" type approach-furthermore as for the other comment re my idea i apologised for my names mixup to the person concerned once it was pointed out to me and accepted that correction-am not sure what you mean by fraudbusting so have no comment about that yet-also what data shows there was no connection between the previous mayor and Iga/Koga ryu?-till the next rr
     
  10. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    To begin with, "fraudbusting" is the deliberate pursuance of fraudulant individuals in the Martial Arts. Questions are fine about people or arts, but pursuing aggressively isn't. There are various reasons, including opening up the site to legal issues, but we don't need to go through that here.

    As to your post, you presented the information as a "correction" to the information presented already, which makes it appear as your version of things, and that "correction" needed correction. The immediate discussion is simple. It's wrong.

    In terms of the "data" about Okuse, let's look at it. Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu are related, but not by any means the same. So no-one was head of anything called "IgaRyu/Koga Ryu", it's really an either/or situation. Okuse also never claimed to be anything more than an interested researcher in Ninja and Ninjutsu methods, it was a few early English books (such as Andy Adams') that gave an impression of him being more than a researcher. But there was never a claim of him being anything like head of a Ryu, other than from Saito. He basically fabricated the connection, and had some posed photos to use as evidence.
     
  11. shirobanryunotora

    shirobanryunotora Yellow Belt

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    Hi-apologies for stirring up a storm however as stated earlier the data and version etc was not mine and the reference was supplied.Also if you read my text again you should note i stated explicitly that i was unsure of its validity and was simply bringing it to the attention of others. That being so and in regards to all that has been said in reaction by you and others on this matter and other issues i am inclined to refrain from "discussing" such topics with you and others here and impose a self posting ban on such topics and not bother to seek clarification on my research- unless i am compelled to do so there will be no more next from me-rr
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2011
  12. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Okay.... It wasn't my intention to get you to stop posting, however if you are going to post such incorrect information, expect it to be corrected and pulled up on. So yes, while you did mention some degree of uncertainty about the validity of the information, you also presented it as a correction to the earlier posts, and argued about how it could be out of date, and why that would lower the worth of the data you had. That presents it as your belief, whether it is or not, and that is what we responded to.

    In regard to your "refrain(ing) from "discussing" such topics with you and others here and impose a self posting ban on such topics and not bother(ing) to seek clarification on my research", well, that's obviously your call, but I would say that if you are believing Saito's claims, and misinterpret things the way you have, then perhaps seeking clarification is a very good idea for you. You obviously have some good contacts (if the name dropping you do so prominantly is any indication), so I am wondering where some of the odd ideas have come from.

    Actually, going through your posts and profile, you mention a trip to Japan in 1990, that you were apparently the first of Ed's students to visit Japan, and your profile lists you as a Godan (a fairly low rank, Bujinkan-wise these days, especially for someone who has been around as long as you have), do you mind if I ask if you're still training, and under who?
     
  13. shirobanryunotora

    shirobanryunotora Yellow Belt

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    Hi-as stated earlier, the data was not my belief so would appreciate you not insisting it was continously. I supplied the reference for others to comment on etc. and appreciate the correcting though not the lecturing.This forum is for discussing as far as i am aware so would hope you keep that in mind.

    Furthermore I never said i believed the data-in fact said was unsure as to its validity etc-so keep that in mind as well(though would have liked it to be corrected if true). As for my "odd ideas" comment from you-thats an opinion and will be treated by me as such. If you insist on continuing with these type comments I will ask the mods to intervene.

    Now onto your "name dropping" comment-yes i have been around the ninpo scene since 1983 and travelled overseas so have met,befriended and trained with many of those who also have been around since then,so obviously would mention them regarding ninpo etc. No surprise there i would think.

    For reasons of my own I do not seek further grading and am quite content to be where i am. Part of this is because I began ninpo to help fulfill a childhood dream due to continuing abuse from a step parent from a very early age. This dream as such was fulfilled in adelaide 1992 at the first Aust. TaiKai when I was asked by Soke to sit for the Godan sword test.

    I do not teach as such and have no need to obtain further gradings etc. I train with an ex-Wayne Roy student on a personal and regular basis.Whenever I am able and can afford to, I train with whoever is in Sth Aust at the time. I consider myself to be "under" Soke Hatsumi and Shihan Nagato of the Bujinkan.

    Hope this is the info you seek- till the next rr
     
  14. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Folks, it's important to remember that messages here sometimes can be read differently than they're intended. Even the most carefully phrased and well written posts lack the various nonverbal cues of face to face communication, so a statement that might have been softened with a smile or tone of voice in a real conversation can be misconstrued.

    We welcome and want the active participation of anyone who'll follow the rules and can play nice with others. We all have had different experiences, and sharing those experiences and interests is what MT is all about.
     
  15. alexanddernigth

    alexanddernigth White Belt

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    With all respect, Who is Shihan Felix Diaz, 14th Dan? Any information about the Shihan, I wanna study under his guide, I try before but I get injury in a car accident. Thanks for any help.
     
  16. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?92079-Info-and-Help!

    Not sure much else can be added, Felix seems to have removed the videos from you-tube, there is no website (although there is a facebook page), etc. So, basically, he's a 14th Dan in the Bujinkan is about all that can be said unless a student of his, or someone that knows him turns up.
     

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