Kuden Sections of the Takamatsu den ryu ha!

[Troy Wideman]

Hello Everyone,

I would like to pose a question for everyone within the different org's. How many of you have been taught the various Kuden sections of the different ryu ha? I have searched the net but found no information. I am not talking about the kuden within the individual patterns but the sections within the different ryu ha.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[gregtca]

http://henka.wordpress.com/2007/10/25/kuden-is-key/

truely im not sure at all , how to answer this question , im going with probibly no
regards
Greg

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Greg, thanks for the input. I read the article and yes there are specific kuden sections of some of the Ryu ha. Takagi Yoshin Ryu, that was discussed has sections for each menkyo level taught. I agree the flavour of the Ryu ha comes out in these sections. I have only seen the patterns taught and not the kuden sections.

Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman

http://henka.wordpress.com/2007/10/25/kuden-is-key/

truely im not sure at all , how to answer this question , im going with probibly no
regards
Greg

 

[Troy Wideman]

In the genbukan, we are taught the specific sections when we learn each menkyo level.

Troy

 

[gregtca]

Hi Troy,

it seems that the basics are only taught, elsewhere, we need more input from others on this i feel , but lets hope it doesnt decend into this style v's that style , i maybe wrong here , but are'nt "Kuden" oral lessons , not kata or henka ?I also wastnt aware of different Menkyo levels within the ryu, call me dumb but i thought you might someday end up with a "menkyo licence ", to teach that ryu ? Can you expand on all this please ?
Regards

Greg

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Greg,

No, Troy's right in the way traditional arts are transmitted. It's the lack of aspects such as this that lead me to say that the Ryu aren't actually taught or studied in the Bujinkan, only the techniques are as a way to explore and study what the Bujinkan actually teaches, which is Budo Taijutsu. Obviously, that's not an attack, as each will attract the students who like what each approach offers.

Kuden pretty literally translates as "oral tranmission", but when it comes to these arts, there are specific kuden teachings. Simply having an instructor explain a technique in more detail isn't really what's meant by "kuden" (although there can be kuden teachings for the kata, often of variations, or ura gata, or alternate applications, such as "hidden strikes"). Henka (formal henka I'm talking about here, not the made-up on the spot form) could be officially written down, or kuden, depending on the Ryu itself.

With regards to a menkyo, that just means "licence", and yes, you can have a range of different forms. A "standard" (well, more common, at least, but hardly universally followed) form is to start with kirigami (literally "cut paper"), which is basically your entrance into the Ryu, then you are awarded a Shoden Menkyo (initial transmission licence), Chuden Menkyo (middle transmission licence), Okuden Menkyo (inner transmission licence), Menkyo Kaiden (licence of full transmission). Commonly, they are split through the levels of the Ryu (to take Gyokko Ryu as an example, you might be awarded Kirigami when you learn the Kihon, Shoden Menkyo when you have learnt the Jo Ryaku no Maki, Chuden Menkyo when you have learnt the Chu Ryaku no Maki, Okuden Menkyo when you have learnt the Ge Ryaku no Maki, and Menkyo Kaiden when you have learnt all of those, as well as any additional patterns/kata, or kuden lessons, such as higher aspects of strategy). Then you have things like Kyoshi Menkyo (teaching licences), which can be awarded at different ranks/experience levels, depending on the Ryu, the organisation, and the instructor. Within the Bujinkan, you have a Shidoshi Menkyo as a teaching licence... and each rank certificate is also a Menkyo. In fact, it states that it's a Menkyo on the far right (that's what the kanji reads). So I have a Shodan Menkyo from the Bujinkan before we left, for example.

Hope that helped.

Hi Troy,

I kinda hate to say it, but I don't think that such sections are well known in the other organisations. With the Bujinkan, the primary reason is that the Ryu simply aren't the focus, Budo Taijutsu (which is Hatsumi Sensei's approach to martial arts, really) is, the kata of the Ryu are simply used to explore that. Within the Jinenkan, the Ryu are a much higher focus, but I haven't come across any talk with any members of much beyond what was written in the Densho that Manaka received from Hatsumi.. I have some ideas as to reasons, but won't quite get into that yet. With the Genbukan, as Tanemura Sensei sought out other students of Takamatsu Sensei to learn from, he got quite a different focus on the Ryu themselves, learning each individually and separately, allowing for such things to be covered, hence them being present in your organisation.

As I said, though, all this is, really, is three different organisations providing different approaches for people to choose between. If you want the traditional systems, go to the Genbukan. If you want to understand Hatsumi Sensei's approach, and the Ryu don't matter so much as it's the overall, homogenized system you want, go for the Bujinkan. And if you want something kinda in-between, we have the Jinenkan. Then, of course, there are organisations such as the one I'm in, but unless you're in Australia, it's kinda moot. And even in our organisation, my approach is a bit different.... but that's another discussion!

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Greg,

Chris answered it quite eloquently. I will say that there are some patterns to teach the different strategy of different kuden. We will see if I will, lol, who knows.

Kind Regards,

Troy

 

[Troy Wideman]

So I guess Chris was right? No one has anything to add.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah... although, to be fair, particularly when it comes to the Bujinkan, there does exist the possibility that they have been taught, or at least shown some aspect, but not been told, and therefore simply don't know to say that they've learnt them. As an example, in Hatsumi Sensei's book "Unarmed Fighting Techniques of the Samurai", the list for Takagi Yoshin Ryu's Shirabe Gata lists 4 kata (Ume Haki, which I learnt as "Baido", Kuruma Gaeshi, Ten Gaeshi, Nagare Dori), followed by:

The remaining twelve techniques are kuden (secret transmissions) and are being listed under the gokui. There are forty-one kuden in total.

Now, I've learnt the other 12 kata, so I suppose you could say that I've learnt the kuden section... but how many would know whether or not what they've learnt is kuden? Especially when there's historically been such confusion over exactly what is in each system, or what comes from which Ryu....

 

[gregtca]

It would seem a lot of ppl claim to teach all 9schools of the bujinkan, I still don't think hatsum I has shown them all yet -giken ryu etc, I would go as to say a lot of ppl claiming such things as they are teaching the whole 9 schools are fooling themselves and lying to their students, don't they NOW study bujinkan taijutsu , very little to do with the original ryu or 9 schools, isn't it argued that they have moved on from that past teaching into what it is no days, that is a combination of many different teachings and how hatsumi trains in them , as he has said many times , he does not teach , and isn't it said by many that "we don't train like the old days , old ryu's , we now do this cos it is better , and we have been told its better for us, please don't question this as we know , we've been told , ok.
Now it seems to me that we have some 15 dans saying that , the basics are important -gyokko ryu, forms etc, and explaining that these must be the foundation of your training in these arts, also that good hard training in them is needed, that to many high ranks are in need of these things , some are even now re teaching tenchijin manual again, I never did see anyone back in old days being soft as they are today, if you don't feel pain or get hit firmly , then how are you going to learn to move ? How can you claim to teach an ryu when it hasn't been taught ? The original students , now Japanese shinhan , we're taught the different ryu for the first 4 to 7years of training, I forget which exactly, they know what form is from where, how many now days teachers know what kata is from what ryu and which level of that said ryu ?,
this is not a anti bujinkan rant, just an observation , my own opinion,
also its said that hatsumi is teaching the 15 dans , no one else , as you can't learn or understand what is being taught at this level, unless you are a 15 Dan, why then do all these ppl go to Japan to not learn ?
i learnt along time ago to shuto some ones neck, with relying on muscle, I know that now, as I can now place my shuto on the neck of someone with no muscle and they are surprised by the hit, happened yesterday , any way what I was going to write was that I think its important to learn as much possible about each school and to learn them over a long time to get them right, before moving into HENKA , or ranks , but that's another discussion ,

Regards
greg

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Chris,

I am not referring to the shirabe no kata as being a kuden section. I was curious as to why he didn't,the put that in the book. I wonder if it had to do something with a space issue. There are kuden section in the Ryu ha that deal with strategy, how to fight with hachi maki, 5 people holding you, what days are good days to fight in specific directions etc. When we are taught these it is a separate class with instruction, some times just verbal. Some of the stuff is very interesting and applicable to today's environment.

Kind Regards,
Troy Wideman

Yeah... although, to be fair, particularly when it comes to the Bujinkan, there does exist the possibility that they have been taught, or at least shown some aspect, but not been told, and therefore simply don't know to say that they've learnt them. As an example, in Hatsumi Sensei's book "Unarmed Fighting Techniques of the Samurai", the list for Takagi Yoshin Ryu's Shirabe Gata lists 4 kata (Ume Haki, which I learnt as "Baido", Kuruma Gaeshi, Ten Gaeshi, Nagare Dori), followed by:



Now, I've learnt the other 12 kata, so I suppose you could say that I've learnt the kuden section... but how many would know whether or not what they've learnt is kuden? Especially when there's historically been such confusion over exactly what is in each system, or what comes from which Ryu....

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Troy,

Yeah, I figured that you didn't mean things like the Shirabe Gata there (and yeah, I'm curious as to why they were omitted as well... they don't seem to be in any other list/description...).

With regards to the sections you're actually talking about, I know of some old stories of Hatsumi basically just starting to talk about them/teach them, such as specific walking methods, aspects of strategy etc, but he apparently doesn't often even say "this Ryu has this teaching", let alone what specific section it is. He's certainly taught aspects of things like sennin dori, gonin dori etc, the randori teachings of Kukishinden and Takagi Yoshin Ryu, but it's almost in bits and pieces... aspects of Takagi Yoshin Ryu's multiple hold methods might be taught during a class on Kukishinden Ryu, or Shinden Fudo Ryu, with no mention of where it actually comes from. This, it seems, can lead some to think that it's actually from Kukishinden or Shinden Fudo, when it's not, all of which just adds to the confusion that occurs over what is or isn't part of the Ryu there.

 

[flado]

Hi
All Jinenkan Dojo-cho were taught the kuden of Koto ryu and Kukishin ryu bikenjutsu by Manaka Unsui Sensei in the summer of 2010 in Japan.
Sincerely
/Leif Angestam

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Leif,

When you talk about learning the kuden of Koto Ryu and Kukishin Ryu Bikenjutsu, are you talking about the kuden of the different kata? If you are, I don't think that's what Troy's asking about, he's asking about the specific kuden sections of some Ryu-ha, separate to the kuden of the waza themselves.

 

[flado]

Hi Chris
no, it was the kuden sections of koto ryu and kukishin ryu biken. not the kuden of the different kata.
regards
/Leif

 

[Chris Parker]

Ah, cool. Out of interest (and I'm not asking you to divulge what it was exactly, obviously), but can you tell me whether or not that included the Fudo Ken, Engeki Ken, Shinmyo no Ken methods for Kukishin Ryu Biken?

 

[flado]

Hi Chris,
You can read all about it here:
http://www.jinenkan.com/ennew/message2007.html (click on summer)
regards
/Leif

 

[Chris Parker]

Very interesting! Manaka Sensei has always been incredibly generous in his teaching! It does seem a pity for anyone joining the organisation later, though....

 

[flado]

Yes, he is very generous.

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Leif,

Thanks for the input. Just curious have you guys also covered the yurushi no den of Takagi Yoshin Ryu.



Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Yes, he is very generous.