Offical Ryu Ha studies & Ranking!

Discussion in 'Koryu Corner' started by Troy Wideman, Mar 22, 2009.

  1. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Green Belt

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    Hello,

    I just thought I would ask a general question about the other two ninpo organizations. Have any of them licenced any of their practiconers offically in the Ryu Ha. In the Genbukan we have this opportunity, I was wondering if it had been made available to either the Bujinkan or Jinenkan members.
    I am referring to foreigners being allowed to rank in the ryu ha and if so, who has been allowed to so far.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
     
  2. kakuma

    kakuma Yellow Belt

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    In the Jinenkan there is not an option to test for licenses in the individual ryu-ha except for that of the Jinen Ryu in which Manaka Sensei is the founder of.
     
  3. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Hi,

    I will defer to the Bujinkan members themselves here, but if I recall Hatsumi Sensei has ranked/licenced students in particular ryu-ha before. Tanemura Sensei, I believe, recieved Menkyo Kaiden in a number of the ryu before he left, likewise Manaka Sensei was awarded Menkyo Kaiden in the 6 ryu of the Jinenkan (Togakure, Koto, Gyokko, Kukishin(den), Takagi Yoshin, and Shinden Fudo (Jutaijutsu as well as the Dakentaijutsu)).

    I wouldn't be surprised if they are not the only ones, but I haven't heard any confirmation. The only thing I have seen close to this recently is Shihan Arnaud Cousergue was presented with a Menkyo Kaiden in Biken (Tachi and Katana) a few years ago.
     
  4. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    Correction - Tachi Waza. And yes, there's more than one meaning to that phrase.
     
  5. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    AFAIK, Yes, its done in the Bujinkan, but if I understand correctly, its somthing awarded, not somthing you can specifically request and/or test for, as to who has what... it's also generally not discussed so much...

    :idunno:

    Someone with more knowlage and experience can correct me if I am wrong.
     
  6. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Green Belt

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    Hello,

    Well Tachi Menkyo is not ranking in the offical ryu ha that Hatsummi is soke of. I am curious if any one has ranking in the ryu ha. I have heard that someone has a menkyo in Amatsu Tatara medicine and also Shinken Gata but I was not aware if someone had licence in the ryu ha. I could not find it anywhere on the internet. I know Hatsummi issued licence to the Japanese Shihan but to my knowledge I have not heard of any foreigners receiving a rank. This would be interesting to know. I am curious if Mr. Sageo knows.
    I had also heard that some of Manaka's top students had received licence in some of the ryu ha, that is interesting that you say this is not the case kakuma.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy
     
  7. STEPS

    STEPS White Belt

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    Yes, all the senior Japanese Shihan in the Bujinkan hold Menkyo Kaiden in a few of the Ryu-Ha. Some hold more than others. The foreigners are more tricky. Some of Hatsumi Sensei's early students (Stephen Hayes, Doron Navon, etc.) received Dan Licenses in Togakure Ryu Ninpo up until the point the Bujinkan was officially organized. Then the ranks changed to "Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu", then "Budo Taijutsu". However there are no Dan ranks in the ryu-ha, just the traditional koryu menkyo format.

    A few European Shihan have been given some kind of Menkyo in Amatsu Tatara Hichibuko. But I don't know what they did to get it, nor Hatsumi Sensei's intentions when he gave them out.

    Other than that, to my knowledge, nobody else in the Bujinkan holds any kind of official traditional license in the commonly known 9 Ryu-Ha. If anyone has any pertinent information to add, please do so. This is the limit of my understanding in this particular subject as of today.
     
  8. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Black Belt

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    Four someones, actually: Peter King, Christopher Roworth, Dennis Bartram and William Doolan.

    The "Shinkengata" program is a specific course of instruction created by Phil Legare drawing from a Bujinkan technical base, and as I recall Hatsumi sensei approved/authorized it. You could think of it as sort of a "Bujinkan lite" program for people with a need for self-defense skills but lacking the time to commit to budo.
     
  9. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Green Belt

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    Thanks for answering back. I was wondering also about the Jinenkan as well. Is there any higher ranked members of the Jinenkan that can confirm the rumour that a few of the higher ranked foreigners received a menkyo licence from manaka.
    Well I hope some of the Bujinkan members get the chance one day to practise an individual ryu ha and received offical ranking in it. It really gives you an appreciation for the effort our teachers put into learning this fantastic martial art.
    I am forever gratefull to my teacher Tanemura Sensei for giving us this opportunity.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy
     
  10. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually in the Bujinkan we already know that several people have received Menkyo Kaiden in specific Ryu. (ie. the Japanese Shihan) There probably are a few Westerners that may have also received this but may also have been asked not to publisize it by Sensei. (we just do not know) I see know difference between how Sensei is doing it and what is done in the Genbukan. Long standing practitioner's in both will have an opportunity to achieve this I imagine. [​IMG]
     
  11. EWBell

    EWBell Orange Belt

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    It is possible for all members in the Genbukan to receive ranking in the ryu ha without being a high level. Recently Tanemura Soke has been doing ryu-ha Tai Kai, in which members, both kyu level and yudansha, can test and receive ranking. For instance, last year at the US Tai Kai it was Gyokko Ryu, in the UK it was Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu, and this year in Canada it is Koto Ryu. Kyu levels can test for a kirigami grade, and yudansha can test for a shoden menkyo. I think the most anticipated one will be in Japan in 2011. That one is Gikan Ryu!
     
  12. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Green Belt

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    Hello,

    Yes, Eric is correct. Tanemura Sensei has recently opened up the training of the Ryu Ha to Genbukan and KJJR members. He has been doing Tai Kai"s focusing on one Ryu Ha in particular. You are able to check test on the ryu ha and receive the first licence in the style (Shoden). Then once you are 3rd or 4th Dan you are able to test in the Chuden level and so on.

    The Canadian Tai Kai will be on the weekend of Sept 20,21st/2009 and the focuse will be Koto Ryu Koppo Jutsu. I am in the process of organizing it but you can get all the details on the Canadian Website Or the Main Genbukan website.

    www.genbukan.ca or www.genbukan.org

    I am looking forward to seeing all the Genbukan Members there. I am sure this will be a Tai Kai you do not want to miss. Shihan James Wright is also coming to assisst Tanemura Sensei as well.

    Training in the individual ryu ha is different then just doing the Dan patterns. Upon receiving your menkyo and scroll alot of kuden for the level is passed on.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
     
  13. EWBell

    EWBell Orange Belt

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    I am very excited about attending the Canadian Tai Kai. This will be a first time for me, so I don't know what to expect just yet. Thank you for organizing it Kyoshi Wideman.

    Eric
     
  14. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    From your explanation, it seems that you can only reach menkyo kaiden in individual ryuha if you make it to certain dan grades, is this correct?
    But once you have menkyo kaiden in e.g. Koto Ryu Koppo Jutsu, wouldn't you be allowed to teach it fully to lower dan grade students or even outside students?
     
  15. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Green Belt

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    Hi Bruno,

    Yes to reach the higher grades of the ryu ha takes years of study. I for example have been working on the takagi Yoshin Ryu and Asayama Ichiden Ryu for almost 13 years. It takes alot of work to get up and do a check test and memorize 80 patterns correctly from memory. Each Ryu ha is different and might take a different amount of time to master because of their size.
    Inregards, to teaching lower ranks the techniques, you can only do this with Tanemura Sensei's blessing. I have no idea what happens after menkyo kaiden because I have not been fortunate enough yet to reach that rank. I myself, would still not teach with out Tanemura Sensei's blessing.
    I think it is only natural that you would be a higher dan grade to be able to do a higher licence level. First of all this shows your level of commitment to the art and Tanemura Sensei as your teacher.

    Eric,

    I think you will really enjoy yourself at the Tai Kai. I try to make sure everyone knows exactly what is going on. Has all the directions to lunch etc. If you are taking part in the instructor training I am making sure there is a shuttle to get people back and forth to the location. Anyone coming from the states will have a huge benefit because of the exchange.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy
     
  16. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    Hello Troy,

    I understand. As long as we are within Genbukan, Tanemura sensei has the final say.

    This won't yet be an issue, the next 15 years.
    The reason I asked was this: if foreigners get menkyo kaiden, they could teach in their home country to lower dan grades.
    From what I understood, Tanemura sensei himself conducts tests from yondan and higher. So before you can achieve menkyo kaiden in a system, you have to have been to Japan several times, for (I guess) longer periods of time.

    This means that for example a 3d dan who wants to specialize in bo-jutsu cannot do so without also having to go to Japan and get his higher dan grades. Is this correct?

    You have a point of course that this shows commitment
     
  17. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Green Belt

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    Hi Bruno,

    Yes, I believe you will need to go to Japan at some point, or a Tai Kai to test for the information. There might be some people that have been given permission to teach specific students the next level. I for example ask Tanemura Sensei permission before I start teaching my students Asayama Ichiden Ryu or Takagi Yoshin Ryu. There are a few of my students that have started both and are lucky because I can help them out. If you did not have a teacher in your area, then you would need to get all the information from Japan and travel quite a few times.

    Hope this answers your questions.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy
     
  18. kakuma

    kakuma Yellow Belt

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    Mr. Wideman,

    I am not sure where you heard or received this information. I can assure you that this information is incorrect. The only menkyo licenses that are currently obtainable are from that of the Jinen Ryu within our organization.
     
  19. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Green Belt

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    Hello Dale,

    Thank you for clearing up the miss information. All the best.

    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman
     
  20. Ninpo81

    Ninpo81 White Belt

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    I do not wish to start any arguments about this, but I would like to state that I was told and by whom I will NOT say, that Tanemura never finished his training when he was expelled from the Bujinkan for bad behavior.

    Therefore anyone receiving rank in the ryu ha he teaches are technically being issued rank in Tanemura-Ha versions of those systems. An yes I know..he went on to train with some of Takamatsu's ex students but I have also done my homework on that and none of the people he trained with to help finish his training we're liscened in any of the Ninpo Ryu. I was told in particualarly Tanemura did NOT finish his Ninpo training with Hatsumi and it is RUMORED that he was only an 8th Dan in the Bujinkan before his dismisal.
    Correct me if I am wrong about any of this but I thought it might help keep people from being misguided.
     

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