Not effective?

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Pinigseu1, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    Actually I disagree with this, hence why fighters are starting to use more front kicks (two knockouts recently). Precisely because pretty much all MMA fighters train against Muay Thai style kicks not Taekwondo style kicks. This is why fighters like Cung Le, Anthony Pettis and Ben Henderson have done so well - their kicks are unorthodox in comparison to the majority of MMA fighters.

    Even Lyoto Machida has success with his Karate-style kicks because they are different to the general kicks that MMA fighters are used to dealing with.

    I'm still waiting for someone to land an axe kick in MMA! That'll be awesome!
     
  2. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Youtube, My Good Man ;)
     
  3. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    In this country the majority of MMA fighters are actually from TKD or karate rather than MT. I've seen axe kicks, front kicks, hook kicks etc all used in MMA here, we even teach them! MT is added in as well as is a lot of different styles, we use what works.
     
  4. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    As sad as this is (being a Brit), I virtually never watch any UK MMA unless it makes it to UFC (or WEC, Strikeforce). May have to start though...
     
  5. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    http://www.sherdog.com/videos/weeklybeatings

    Its Free. What can I say.
     
  6. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    You will find UK MMA a bit different because we have cultural differences, the Americans have a lot of wrestlers as it's a sport taught in schools and colleges ( it would be good if anything like that was taught here) while we have the traditional ground game ie Judo, JJ and BJJ. Even our Olympic wrestlers aren't British being brought in from the old Eastern Bloc. We have most fighters coming from a TMA background rather than boxing, boxing here doesn't like us, Barry Hearn for one swearing he'll see us banned.
    There's more Brit MMA on tele these days if you have satellite or Freeview, I'm Pm you when I know somes on though ideally go to a good MMA show, it's fun and enjoyable.
     
  7. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    One of my favourites, Marius from London Shoot.
     
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  8. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    It's really not a valid thing to compare your typical martial arts student, to a mixed martial arts competitor.

    First, and foremost, most MMA competitors that you see competing at UFC, Strikeforce, etc., are excellent athletes in prime physical condition. Even without the martial arts knowledge, they're going to be strong forces in combat. After all, the bigger, stronger guy in better physical condition is going to win most of his fights.

    Second, is the fact that the game of MMA has changed throughout the years. At first, the competition was more of a "my style vs. your style" that was done in a setting that favored grappling. Someone with a pure wrestling or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu background could thrive in such a setting, especially since most fighters were unfamiliar with the ground game. There were many kickboxers, boxers, Savate, etc., who were very much frustrated by the ability of the BJJ guys to neutralize their striking skills.

    It didn't take long for everyone to realize that a good wrestler or Judo-ka could certainly neutralize or beat a good Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioner or vice-versa. Even last Saturday's UFC event shows that a freak athlete the likes of Jon Jones, with his excellent wrestling skills, could take out Lyoto Machida, a fellow with an excellent Brazilian Jiu Jitsu background (even though his main art is Shotokan Karate), where he really overpowered him with a strong ground and pound game.

    At the same time, it didn't take much for everyone to realize that as everyone started becoming familiar with the grappling game, that the grapplers had to learn how to finish off opponents with strikes as well. I remember Mark Coleman, a pure wrestler at the time, fighting against Maurice Smith, a kickboxer who had also studied grappling extensively, and knew how to defend against them very well. Coleman was able to get the mount, yet was unable to finish off Smith, who then proceeded to deliver quite a beating to Coleman. The same held true for Dan "The Beast" Severn, another classical wrestler who lacked the finishing skills needed to quickly end the matches against some of the tougher opponents (even though he did win).


    Please note, that this isn't a bash against the grapplers. Grappling arts the likes of wrestling, Judo, Ju Jutsu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, etc., are all excellent arts, and I have a very healthy respect for those who train in any of the above; the same respect goes to anyone who trains in any respected martial art, including Tae Kwon Do.

    If anything, grappling arts are still the basis for most MMA competition, and without knowledge in them, a competitor is going to get squashed pretty quickly.

    These days, everyone who competes in things such as UFC, Strikeforce, etc., are going to have knowledge in both grappling and striking. That's why it's now Mixed Martial Arts, and not a "my style vs. your style." You can pick almost any number of combinations of different systems, and they'll work just fine, such as Boxing + Wrestling, Karate + Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Kickboxing + Wrestling, Tae Kwon Do + Wrestling, etc.
     
  9. mxav

    mxav Yellow Belt

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    effective how? In sport both have different focuses, in self defense both are sports and not the ideal
     
  10. SPX

    SPX Black Belt

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    That's a legitimate perspective, but it's another conversation. My statement was solely in regard to Karate as a way of overcoming another person in combat.

    I also think that there's a question regarding how karate can help one perfect their "soul." What is it about karate that does this? Furthermore, what is it about karate that does this in a way that can't be accomplished with other physical activities, like football, rock climbing or running?

    To be honest, whenever people talk about using martial arts as a way of refining themselves spiritually I'm frankly never sure exactly what they're talking about. Do they mean that the physical movements help them transcend regular consciousness? Do they mean that the Buddhist-influenced philosophy helps them to understand the world differently?

    I just don't know. Quite frankly, I'm not even sure that most people who make such statements know.
     
  11. SPX

    SPX Black Belt

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    I understand. My criticisms really have more to do with the focus of the training. For one, it's just not serious. Adults are training with kids . . . and the kids outnumber the adults 3 to 1.

    I actually did make it as far as my yellow belt testing. In three months under my instructor--one of the more respected instructors in the area--there was not an ounce of sparring, and this includes all the colored belts. And at the testing, which includes many of the organizations local head honchos, there were red belts testing and they didn't have to spar during the test to get promoted.

    There just seems to be a sense of terror surrounding people actually hitting each other. I at least know that the local WTF school has an entire class per week dedicated to sparring.
     
  12. SPX

    SPX Black Belt

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    Good post. I agree. I think TKD can be a legitimate striking base for MMA, but you have to train it in a way that's applicable to MMA, and you also have to be able to defend the takedown and survive on the ground.

    John Makdessi, who unfortunately just got grapple-raped at the last UFC but went 3-0 in the org before that, has a TKD and Karate base. And I know that Anthony Pettis comes from a TKD background. You can see it in both fighters, especially Makdessi.

    Here's another guy who has been able to adapt his TKD to MMA with decent results:


     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  13. SPX

    SPX Black Belt

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    Machida has a wrestling background of his own though, in the form of Sumo. Even though Machida didn't last as long as Rampage or Shogun, he really gave Jones a better test then either of those guys, winning in the first round in most people's opinions. But Jones is just a freak. Not sure who's going to be able to beat that guy. He may be champ for a long time.
     
  14. SPX

    SPX Black Belt

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    Well you at least have to acknowledge that someone who trains at an MMA gym is likely to end up the guy who is more suited for a self-defense situation, if for no other reason than that his training will provide him with substantial grappling ability.
     
  15. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm not a TKD person, but I'll toss in my .02. :) IMO, due to the ruleset, unless the art was modified for the cage, or unless the TKDist has knowledge of the ground, no, its probably not going to work. I think we've seen proof of the 1 dimensional fighters from the early UFC days. You had 1 style fighters competing to see who was best. Every time, the grappler won.

    But, don't let that discourage you from training in the art. If I had a dollar for every time someone said something about the arts I do, I'd be a very rich man....lol. Who cares what people think. If you're happy, keep on training. :)
     
  16. ETinCYQX

    ETinCYQX Master Black Belt

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    I run a sparring class once a week too, kids get in as soon as I think they're ready.

    What I do is explain a few tricks I like or something that works for me or I've seen and liked, we drill it maybe 5-10 times, and then we spar for the rest of the class.

    Hey, I'm a brown belt! Cool!
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2011
  17. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Because they have little or no experience with true taekwondo. Taekwondo is effective in MMA or UFC fighting. I have students who are very successful in MMA using taekwondo as their bread and butter stand up game. Using taekwondo, we take away punches, they don't like getting full force kicked in the leg or dropped with a back kick on their shoot. So they try to take a leg kick and then shoot, we use footwork to escape, or if not, the game goes to the ground and you do something else. That's why it is called mixed martial arts, because you use different arts at different ranges. Saying taekwondo isn't effective in MMA is like saying boxing is ineffective.
     
  18. Grenadier

    Grenadier Administrator Staff Member

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    This isn't entirely unusual at all.

    There are a good number of schools who don't allow their students to do free sparring until they hit near black belt. While it may sound silly, there is a reason to this.

    By the time they're advanced students, their fundamental technique is of sufficient quality, that when they go into the ring, they're going to be able to do well anyways. For a while, our school did this, that nobody under brown belt was allowed to free spar, unless they were specifically training for competition. Even though this restriction was in place, by the time they hit brown belt, their sparring was clean, strong, and effective, since their techniques and basics were sufficiently polished enough, that I didn't have to worry about how much control they could exhibit.

    For that matter, when we take the ones who were raised under this policy, to the USA-NKF regional qualifier tournaments, they can spar just as well as any of the others out there, and this is against quality competition as well, not some no-name, undisciplined tournament.

    By the time they became black belts (usually within a year of becoming brown belt), they could do free sparring as well as any in the nation. They weren't gun shy about sparring, and had levels of physical conditioning that were good enough, that they could take a decent shot to the body, and keep going without developing a sense of fear.

    A lot of times, the worst thing for a beginner, or even intermediate, student can experience, is taking a very hard shot to the body, and not being ready to take such a blow. As a result, a lot of times, they can end up fighting in a scared manner, that they're afraid to take the initiative and be the aggressor. A lot of these folks then start using purely defensive methods, and this hinders their development.

    Again, it's not necessarily a bad idea to hold off on the solid contact until later. This way, you have better control from the people throwing the techniques, and better capacity to absorb a hit from the recipient.

    Does it appeal to everyone?

    No.

    There are a lot of people who want to put on the fist pads and shin guards, and start sparring right away, and may get frustrated when we tell them they have to wait a bit before doing actual free sparring. However, once they see the development of the beginners and early intermediate students when it comes to their techniques, and see how their one step sparring (ippon kumite) has greatly aided their sense of direction, discipline, distancing, focus, power, and balance, they begin to understand that there's a good reason why this method works.

    In the end, you retain more students this way, and they end up being able to spar as well as anyone out there. This method simply requires a bit more patience, but produces excellent results.
     
  19. SPX

    SPX Black Belt

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    I would definitely never stay at a school where I have to wait more than 3 months to start sparring. There's just no reason for it. Grenadier, I'm sure everything you've said is true, but that's definitely not a path that would appeal to me, or honestly a path that I think is maximally efficient.

    In Judo, you start doing Randori immediately. In a kickboxing gym, it's the same way . . . almost immediate sparring. There's a good reason for that, in my opinion.
     
  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    "Grapple raped"??? Now that's not a nice expression.

    I can give you a long list of British MMA fighters who have BB in TKD and karate, some still practicing these. MMA is what it says on the tin (how many times have I said this now?) it's MIXED repeat MIXED martial arts, using as many of the tradtional arts as you can/want/know. TKD is as good a standup art as any other. However to say fighters don't like leg kicks is misleading, many train MT as well and take leg kicks as a matter of course.
    All MMA people I know say grappling is not what you want to be doing in a self defence situation, if you are really really stuck on the floor use it of course but you want to be up on your feet asap.

    SPX, you've posted this in the TKD section but are also talking a lot about karate as if the two were the same, it's a tad confusing, which do you actually mean?123
     

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