Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by KOGA-NINJA, Feb 8, 2002.
it lives on in the dreams of idiots that watch to many movies by the way the koga ninja are dead and so is their art sad to say.
So, I found out Frank Dux lives in my city and I've been doing some cross-training with him. What I'll say is he's an amazing teacher, and I've been doing martial arts for 20 years. Personally, from my association with him, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would make up things about himself. I know there are a lot of people who don't and wont believe he could actually be for real. I've done some research on my own and I haven't seen any claims against him that actually stand up. Naturally, he could STILL be lieing, but I haven't seen enough credible information for or against him. For now, what I see is a teacher who is sincerely interested in my growth, and has given me great results.
I know this is kind of an old thread. I have an article from Harjit Singh Sagoo (sp?) that Frank sent me when i asked him about about some of these things. I don't remember what magazine it's supposed to be in, but it was interesting.
If you are learning and are happy that is what is the most important thing. If you also believe the value of his training is good and right for you, I say enjoy and keep training.
After a quarter of a century of pretending to be a ninja and stealing stuff from other martial arts to make into a mish mash, it would be more worrying if he WASN'T pretty good at generic martial arts, at least enough to convince impressionable young folk, I mean all the fakes can't be as bad as Ron Duncan and Ashida Kim can they?
Even Choson Ninja on Youtube is a pretty good martial artist if you like lots of kicks and fancy clear cut McDojo techniques, and at least he keeps fit and seems to care about people.
But this isn't what makes these people genuine or fake. It is the simple fact that their arts don't have any connection to the historical ninja of Japan, or to Seiko Fujita, with whom the Koga tradition died. The connection with Hoshino also raises red flags, as Hoshino has a known history, mainly Korean.
It is ironic that if any of the 1980s fakes had actually trained with the Bujinkan or another X-Kan, with the same fervour that they promote their fake ninjutsu for the last 25 years, they would be among our top teachers now, shihan in their own right.
Hoshino wasn't Korean. He was half Chinese and Japanese with a background in Kendo and Shorinji-ryu karate. One thing that Hoshino had that most didn't was his knowledge on the books Bansenshukai and Shoninki and his ability to read them.
He apparently used a Korean name at some point prior to using Harunaka Hoshino. I can't remember where I heard that but it wasn't the internet. He was claiming to be a 'master' of other stuff before the ninja boom.
I do hope you haven't got a pair of jim jams with big skulls on George!
No, I am not a skull and bones member.
I have an article on Kabutowari (helmet splitter) from him prior to the ninja boom and his name was Yuan something and that he taught kendo and Shorinji-ryu (Renshinkan). Dale Seago, who studied under him for a short time, said he was half Chinese and half Japanese, and that he took his mother's last name of Hoshino. I will see if I can find the article when I get home.
Why would a whole line die with one guy? Weren't there hundreds of ninja families? Keep in mind I'm a newb when it comes to this history. But it seems this is a historical controversy on two fronts: 1) Whether the Koga line died with one man, and 2) Whether Fujita Seiko ever passed on his skills.
What fake military Decorations?
There were many tens of families, if not hundreds, who passed on skills that have since been categorised under the umbrella term 'ninjutsu', but they didn't consider themselves ninja or shinobi or anything like that, it is a name applied later in most cases and many of their skillsets would have been as different as chalk and cheese.
Fujita Seiko may very well have had a successor, but you or I will never know anything about it, nor most Japanese researchers, let alone gaijin wannabe Koga ninjas who are looking for something that requires less hard work than the Takamatsuden arts and is full of karate kicks and other such nonsense. Fujita Seiko stated publicly that his knowledge would die with him which was either A) perfectly true, or B) a smokescreen to hide any successors. What he would not have intended is for Americans and Brits to take his name and the Koga name in vain and dress up silly for the cameras. Modern Koga ninjutsu could not be more obviously made up thousands of miles away from Japan if it came with ketchup and fries. Takamatsu Sensei, on the other hand, made no secret of his history in his final years and named his successor clearly without forbidding him to teach foreigners or claiming to take any secrets with him to the grave.
The only way there could possibly be any 'controversy' over whether Fujita Seiko had a successor would be if he chose a big mouthed incompetent idiot with no integrity who couldn't wait to produce large numbers of hooded weirdos around the world. It also wouldn't explain how all the stuff that people claim is Koga (or Koka or other pointlessly misleading spellings) ninjutsu plainly has no Japanese influences, or bears any resemblance to the written works that were left by Seiko.
Koga is gone forever man, deal with it and get with the real deal.
Don Roley wrote an excellent piece on why Koga is extinct, I believe, and my understanding is that another member here did a hefty amount of research into Fujita Seiko and published a book on his findings.
Anyone who has LEGITIMATELY studied the histories and not the "My top secret Koga Ryu Master living in a banana tree in Hawaii told me so" versions knows the lines are extinct. And From what I understand from the articles and histories I read In many cases of the 70 or so Ninja families, when they decided the arts were no longer needed or practical, they stopped passing them on. There are only a tiny handful left, AFAIK.
Is it really so hard to believe that people simply stopped teaching something over time? In many ways, European martial arts died out with the advent of gunpowder and "modern" military tactics. Only because some dedicated martial arts have worked hard to revive and rediscover the treatises do we have an idea about them.
Many traditional crafts have died out over time; countless martial styles have as well when their teachers simply failed to pass them on. Why is it so mind-boggling that Koga (or any other) ryu ninjutsu did, too?
Like I said, I'm a ninja history newb. It could be possible that the koga line, but for everyone I've found who says the koga line is dead I've found another that says it's alive and kicking. Some with pictures.
It's more of an intellectual pursuit for me anyway. I care if a person can fight, and more importantly, if they can teach ME to fight. My primary art is Shaolin Kempo. There's doubt as to the veracity of the history of Sho tung kwok, which differentiates SKK from Nick Cerio's Kempo. Quite frankly, I care more that it teaches me to fight better.
James Mitose, who is solely responsible for bringing kempo to Hawaii, used to walk around dressed like a monk, but history has shown that he was definately never a monk. There's doubts to William K.S. Chow's history, but he's a bigger name in Kempo than James Mitose. I tend not to worry myself too much with historical controversy except as an intellectual pursuit.
Having met, trained under, and hung out with Frank Dux, I don't believe He's lying about his past. However, regardless of his past, I'd still train with him for one reason and one reason alone: training with him is sky-rocketting my own martial arts, and in fact helping my Shaolin kempo.
Ok Josh... Im gonna sound like a dick here... but I HAVE to ask.
If you dont actually give a **** if someone is lying about their history to you/the world as long as you are happy with what you are doing... why bring it up and get busy trying to refute the facts that are presented?
Like I said. For me it's an intellectual pursuit. I have a big drive to learn new things. Do I really NEED to have a bigger drive than mere curiosity?
I love studying history; it's not black and white for most of it. Right now what I'm doing is putting up bits of info I've come across, and seeing what else comes up. I can't remember who said it but someone once said, "If we each have one apple, and we trade our apples, we each still have one apple. If we each have one idea and we trade ideas, now we each have two ideas."
I never go for just one side of a story, as no viewpoint is correct. But the more viewpoints I find, the broader understanding I get. Plus, I rarely learn anything new by not challenging the generally accepted. Whatever version of history I choose to follow, the act of questioning and counter-example are fun for me, and I learn a lot. So I'll say again, what's wrong with mere curiosity? What's wrong with throwing up counter-examples to see what others come up with? That, as I recall, is the process of historical inquiry. I do this with American and Christian history. Why WOULDN'T I do this with ninja history?
To me, It sounds more like "Hitler wasn't a Nazi" than challenging the ideas that say "Hitler was evil". Facts are Facts, and refuting them doesnt change them.
But what do I know.
Look Josh, there's a couple of things.
Firstly, I think Mr Dux is probably believing his own stories by now, and this goes for some of the other long term fakes as well, I mean, would you want to admit that everything your life was based on was a web of lies and deceit? It is too late for Dux and Kim, but it is not too late for their 'supporters'.
The other thing is that if the arts of Mr. Dux have 'skyrocketed' your Shaolin Kempo, then this is probably because the martial skills of Mr. Dux are taken from arts like kempo, rather than ninjutsu. Kempo is a fine art but you can tell from looking at it that its practitioners aren't overly concerned with hiding the techniques from onlookers, whereas taijutsu is somewhat more clandestine. If there were people fighting in a crowd, you would most likely spot the Kempo guy fighting his opponent but probably not the taijutsu guy. I'm not saying one art is better than the other, I'm just saying that taijutsu considers aspects of fighting that kempo does not worry about so much, i.e. a low profile during execution.
And when you look at supposed 'Koga Ryu' footage, it just isn't sneaky, and it clearly draws mainly from non-Japanese sources.
Thank you. This is useful to me.
Go study history in general (and in specific) and you'll find that truth is nuanced. More often than not, we don't have facts when it comes to history, we have testimony. Viewpoints. This is less a matter of "Hitler wasn't a Nazi" and more a matter of "Constantine was a Christian".
Notice both statements are false. However, for over a millennium, it was a broadly accepted FACT that Constantine was a Christian. It's only in the past hundred years or so that it became a broadly accepted FACT that Constantine is NOT a Christian.
You are right that Facts are Facts, and that refuting them doesn't change them. However, continued speculation and healthy skepticism are the kind of scholarship that sheds new light on what we believe to be facts.123
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