Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by KOGA-NINJA, Feb 8, 2002.
Who said I'm ignoring it? I'm still finding it all!
The word 'boom' is the crux here.
Ninjutsu has been around in a recogniseable form for around 1000 years.
Formal Ryu existed for centuries and centuries.
Oriental martial arts became most popular in the rest of the world in the 20th century. Jujutsu and judo were well known early in the century.
Now, if I was an expert in traditional pirate skills, including fighting with cutlasses, hooked poles, flintlock pistols etc, and decided to make my art public, do you not think it would be suspicious if overnight other people popped up, saying "I'm a pirate too". It would be called the 'Pirate Boom'.
It is also called a bandwagon.
Out of all those centuries, what is the likelihood that the most secret of arts would emerge from different places at exactly the same time?
One thing I am sure of, and that is that if there are still other ninjutsu ryuha in existence in Japan other than those handed down to Hatsumi Soke or the fragments remaining in some koryu arts, it would seem they are not eager to jump on any bandwagon and it may be a long time, if ever, before they surface.
p.s. there is another Koga ryu claimant with clips on Youtube, who at least is Japanese, but he too is not authentic according to popular opinion.
And slightly off topic, but can someone correct me on somthing?
"Koga" was a region, right? Why is it all the "super secret" arts that keep popping up are called "Koga Ryu" instead of a Family name like most Japanese arts have? Is that normal, or suspicious?
Frank corrected me. Tanaka wasn't British intelligence as well. He was in London spying on the British. That makes it easier and harder. Would there be a written record of his spying activies? Then again, since there was a Tanaka Kushinige in history that was kempeitai, maybe it's possible.
This is the real problem with trying to credit or discredit Frank's history. Since it's intelligence stuff, it's hard to prove or disprove.
And I know there are people who tried to expose him as a fraud on fronts that are not ninjutsu, but frankly their credibility is dubious as well. B.G. Burkett for example. he tried to say Frank lied about his military history. This is the same guy who contributed to the Swift Boat campaign against John Kerry and the same guy who went after John McCain on his record. He's not the only example.
The ninjutsu thing is different. Almost everything leaves a paper trail, no matter how good someone is about hiding it. I'll find something that shows either this Kushinige Tanake is not the same Kushinige Tanake, or that he was.
My understanding is that Iga and Koga are mountainous regions of Japan. In the 1700s and 1800s, they were rural and out of the way, so they attracted a lot of "oddball" types avoiding the various governments.
Why does Koga Ryu keep popping up for questionable ninjutsu styles? Because there's some historical documentation of the style -- but enough broken links and questions to leave room for the "mysterious neighbor" or "sneaky hermit" to have taught people. The best accounts and most documentated information that I've read or seen suggests that the Koga Ryu died with Fujita Seiko. It's possible that some family styles have been quietly passed on, and are still taught if you know the right people -- but it's at least equally possible that those sorts of arts died out when someone didn't see a need or place for it in the next generation.
As an aside, traditional Japanese styles acquire their names in various ways. Some are named after families or founders, some after locations where they were taught, and some more colorfully as a guide to their teachings. (And probably other ways I'm not thinking of at the moment.)
And quite honestly, Fujita Seiko's style could be made up too. That would throw even another wrench into this murky history. The only evidence I've seen for Fujita Seiko being trained by yamabushi are his own words. It would also explain why he never chose to teach it. His own students he taught the other things he knew.
And the moon could actually be made of green cheese, and the 12 men who walked on it are all liars. As are everyone else involved in the moon landings.
Dude, it's simple. You're never going to have 100% positive proof, for lots of reasons. Frank Dux's claims have a lot of holes, which others have pointed out at length and ad nauseum.:deadhorse Nobody's going to satisfy you one way or the other; you're "doing your own research", but apparently have no standard to assess what you find. You don't seem to want to consider what anyone else says, no matter where they're coming from.
I'm stumped on what you're looking for.
A Japanese person in London spying on the British at that time would have stood out like a sore thumb. Sounds a bit dubious, along with the snazzy name Senzo Tanaka.
Nearly as bad as Saija, the supposed ******* grandmaster.
Now Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda, that's a name that an American would never have thought of, or Toshitsugu Takamatsu.
Senzo is Japanese for Ancestor.
The name Frank claims is Kushinige.
What are you talking about? I didn't even know the name Fujita seiko until this website. I DO consider what others say, and then I go research it. I'm still researching. And if Seiko is discredited, it certainly would NOT help Frank's case. You may have researched this, and if you have, Then you know Seiko learned from a band of Yamabushi that originally did not want to teach him, but agreed because he persisted. That kind of falls in with "sneaky hermit", does it not?
I didn't even think of it that way until you posted. How are you going to say I don't take into consideration what anyone else says, when your words helped me talk about something I couldn't put my foot on? Elf Tengu actually has been a big help to my research as well. I've thanked him numerous times.
The only one I've for the most part ignored is cryozombie because he doesn't care, and has said as much.
My standard for history is the same one I had in college: cast nets, gather info, form hypotheses, test those hypotheses, do more research, leave no stone unturned, assess credibility, seek corroboration.
It's not a quick process, and it does a researcher no good to have preconceptions. Because I never went with the main stream oppinion, and I didn't go with Frank's oppinion, I've been able to find things I wouldn't have thought to look for otherwise. But of course I took both sides into consideration or I wouldn't have had a starting point.
1. Anti-Dux Camp: There never was a Kushinige Tanaka.
I found a Kushinige Tanaka.
2. Pro-Dux Camp: Ian Flemming based his character "Tiger Tanaka" on Kushinige Tanaka.
Everything I've found says that character was based on Torao "Tiger" Saito.
But yet I take into consideration what others say on both sides of the fence. That doesn't mean I go along with it. History is not cut and dry, if you're looking for the big picture. If you are looking for the quick answer so you can go about your life that's easy, but it's not history.
But I won't settle for one camp or another because (aside from the fact I haven't been in boy scouts for many years) what people keep giving me keeps bringing up more questions. Since i am curious, and I do not have a life, I plan on exploring it.
But the reason your stumped on what I'm looking for is because there's no one thing I'm looking for. I don't have anything to prove to anybody, and the reason I began researching into this history is pure curiosity, and it's aside from my training. And in the process I'm learning about X-kan, koga, kempeitai, russia, britian, and America.
Honestly, man I just like learning. Frankly I like this history BECAUSE there are so many puzzles. this stuff Will take YEARS to go through! My two big distractions in life are martial arts and history. What am I looking for? anything I can find. What's the harm?
Honestly, you're right, it does sound dubious. But at least according to wikipedia, the Kempeitai did have opperations in great Britain.
And I need to print a retrataction.
The Colonel listed in in White terror was Kunishige not Kushinige. What is interesting, however, is the book references him having contact with the British Army.
Kunishige Tanaka also is pretty well mentioned in Japanese history.
I have to check with Frank and make sure whether it is Kushiniga or kunishige tanaka that trained hi,.
Kunishige is the name of a famous swordsmith, as well known as Masamune or Muramasa, a name that a Westerner would come across fairly quickly when researching Japanese martial history. There are also lots of other Kunishiges.
Tanaka is the equivalent of Smith in that it is the most common Japanese surname.
Together they aren't all that convincing.
The other confusing thing is that I believe Kunishige and Tanaka are surnames and most people, even in Japan, tend to have a forename and a surname, although there are exceptions.
Finally, it was Hatsumi Sensei and Takamatsu Sensei who were consulted on the ninja aspects of You Only Live Twice, so why would the character be based on a completely unrelated ninja not known in Japan? And if it was the book character that was supposedly based on Dux's teacher, why did they not go to him for advice when making the movie?
If you are a Japanese ninja master who is going to spill your secrets of ninjutsu, you are going to spill them to your fellow Japanese first and not some gaijin who is going to dress up and make all sorts of strange claims.
If there was Hatsumi and Stephen Hayes and nobody else it would make people question the authenticity of the Bujinkan but there were Japanese shidoshi long before Hayes ever went to Japan and they are still there as shihan today, plus the two who have since founded the Genbukan and Jinenkan.
I can think of no other aspect of Japanese culture or history that has died out in Japan and is now entirely in the hands of an American. It just doesn't happen.
Also, all Japanese arts have a very Japanese flavour, even the Bujinkan, so why do none of the fake schools, Dux included?
This is very important.
I think it is some what rare to be allowed to learn something being a gaijin(some older Japanese do not like Americans) And even more so to learn some things when you do not speak the language.
I thought the regions of Iga and Koga shared technquies similar but when ever we see Kamae we see a vast difference.
For the most part I'll agree. I only have a couple issues:
1. You could be absolutely correct about the words kunishige and tanaka. However, I did find a Kunishige Tanaka who was Kempeitai and did have connection in London.
The name, plus the kempeitai affiliation, plus the London connections all taken as a whole provide too much of a coincidence to ignore. There very wel could have been
Another interesting thing is it puts this tanaka in London around the same time Ian Flemming was involved in the things he eventually wrote about.
Though again, when it comes to physycal description and personality, those all came from Torao "Tiger" Saito. Saito was not a ninja. He was a journalist with whom Flemming shared an affinity. So it makes Frank's case tougher to claim
But again, the name by it self would be unconvincing. The name plus the other factors combined are what make this a tougher case to disprove.
source: White Terror: Cossack Warlords of the Trans-Siberian By Jamie Bisher
I've only read snippets because it's a textbook and it's over $100.
2. As far as Japanese martial arts losing their Japanese flavor, I'd need to more fully understand what you mean by flavor. Because I see it I could reference Kempo, Karate and Jujutsu as having lost a lot of its Japanese flavor not on purpose, but as a natural biproduct of people practicing the art who are not Japanese. Over time it's almost a guarantee that a martial art will take on aspects of the practioners..
But then again that would depend on what we mean by "flavor".
More research I have found shows that Colonel Tanaka Kunishige eventually became General Tanaka Kunishige.
Nish, Ian. Japanese Foreign Policy in the Interwar Period. Westport, CT: Praeger Publishers, 2002.
Um... 4 days and no response. Have I actually brought up something interesting or have people just given up on trying to get through to my thick head?
Probably the latter, since you asked. You've shown a determination to train with Dux no matter what.
I'll be honest, I didn't actually expect to find Kushinige Tanaka, and I didn't expect to find a Kushinige Tanaka that so closely Fit Frank's description. Even the dates fit. It would also make Tanaka about 20 years older than Seiko. If many people are saying "just go with the documented history" and I present documented history, credible history, that doesn't link to a Frank Dux site, and no-one listens or responds, what am I to do?
I mean a lot of the claims for and against Frank hinge on whether his teacher existed. I haven't even gotten to the court stuff, but I have a feeling I'll find more of the same.
Obviously, when I first started, i didn't have anything to prove. I had just met him. But the guy is a very good man. We've actually grown to be friends. Now, I have a big reason to speak; I've gotten to know the man a bit, and I just can't imagine him being a fraud anymore.
What sucks is now my research reasons have an obvious bias. As a researcher, I don't like having one. But the deeper I dig, the more the claims against him seem to be BS.
You know, Josh, the subject of Frank Dux is like the debate over who really shot down the Red Baron.... it'll always be discussed somewheres, but who'll ever know for certain?
Maybe Dux was a good MA who inflated his accomplishments to appear great.... maybe he's wrongly accused.... maybe he was a fake in the past who has now found a new path....
Ultimately what's important is what you gain from the man. If he's giving you what a master should be doing for a student, then more power to each of you. Enjoy the experience and good luck.
i haven't posted anything about this subject but i have been reading it sounds like very interesting stuff. so i hope you continue your research and post your findings. to me it is important to clear a man's name IF " big if" he has been wrongly accused. then the public can take it or leave it. for instance if someone had been aquited for murder and you he's guilty wouldn't you want the truth to be told. i know wrongfully accused prisoners who appreiciate people like you. i am neither for nor against Mr. Dux. i am only for the truth.123
Separate names with a comma.