Ninjutsu vs Bjj (NAGA rules)

[Hanzou]

I don't see an abandoning of technique.

I didn't say that, you did. You're the one who said them fighting like a kickboxer is the abandoning of technique.

They may not use all of the techniques they know but they do use some of them..
Shuai Jiao

Long fist

half moon kick

None of that looks any different than western wrestling or boxing except that last foot stomp to the head.

This is why you don't learn anything. You are always trying to put one thing as being better than another.

Here's your boxing produces a better fighter.

.

Muay Thai incorporates western boxing. One of the top MT fighters in history was also an Olympic boxer.

But anyway we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, feel free to have the last word on this.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Wrestling, Judo, Catch, and Sambo were all dying on a vine, but Bjj and MMA brought them all back to the forefront.

Citation needed. With the exception of Catch (which had mostly died out in the West and had moved to Japan), all of those were doing very well worldwide.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Citation needed. With the exception of Catch (which had mostly died out in the West and had moved to Japan), all of those were doing very well worldwide.

Judo certainly still seemed strong. If nothing else, Olympic competition puts it back in folks' minds every so often.

 

[Hanzou]

Citation needed. With the exception of Catch (which had mostly died out in the West and had moved to Japan), all of those were doing very well worldwide.

Worldwide sure, but in the states not so much.

 

[drop bear]

Citation needed. With the exception of Catch (which had mostly died out in the West and had moved to Japan), all of those were doing very well worldwide.

Not necessarily from a spectator point of view.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Citation needed

my new phrase

 

[FriedRice]

Actually, I think the Kung Fu uppercut is better than the boxing uppercut for the following reasons.

- You use left arm to pull down your opponent's head, uppercut to his chin at the same time.
- You use left hand to pull down your opponent's guard, borrow the counter force, your right hand then uppercut to his chin.
- It integrates defense and offense into one motion.
- This kind of "pull and punch" method can be integrated into the wrestling art much easier than the boxing uppercut.

1. Boxing - a punch is a punch.
2. Kung Fu - a punch can be a pull by one hand and a punch by other hand, or a punch by one hand and then pull by the same hand.

In order to truly integrate the striking art with the wrestling art, that "pull" is important.

My guys have no boxing training. Their striking art came from the long fist system. They can do uppercut just like normal boxer does.

A head pulling (downward force) and uppercut (upward force) at the same time can be seen in this clip.

Nope, it's not a better uppercut....it's just another technique to uppercut.

This is just "dirty Boxing". It's not that Boxers don't know how to do this, it's just illegal in Boxing. But this is perfectly legal in Muay Thai and MMA, and is also used but why not ALL the time if you think it's so superior over a Boxing uppercut? Once again, potentially millions of $$$$$$$ can be on the line in a UFC fight so they'd use it all the time if it was that awesome.

There are risks & rewards to everything in fighting. This uppercut you're showing, based on this video, is:

1. Risking your main point of defense, which is the other hand guarding the head, to sloppily clinch the head for more power into the uppercut.

2. The other point of defense is to keep the chin tucked, and he ain't even doing that.

3. The counter to this would be.....and this happens a lot in Muay Thai but with better techniques...it's called the "crash clinch" where you protect your own head w/1 guard and quickly slide/hop in for a 1/2 clinch, then you can elbow, uppercut, but better to knee and/or elbow......If my head gets pulled down & held down like this, then I really suck as a MT fighter....but I would immediately protect my face with my left hand as I'm expecting a knee to my face, which is much worse than this loopy uppercut.....and immediately throw an overhand right that's looping in like a haymaker to his temple as his left hand is down. I could get hurt or he could get hurt = risks & rewards. He's in better control/position, but this head grabbing/clinching move rarely works on 2 fresh fighters starting out in round 1....you don't just let someone half clinch you like this.

4. This is a low level, smoker fight and they're both tired....so it's understandable that this 1/2 clinch can be easily pulled off. But it doesn't prove at all that this is a better uppercut. It's almost like saying a Superman-punch is the best straight cross variation. Or the overhand right is better than both. They're all situational, but Superman-punches and throwing an uppercut this way, should be used sparingly as surprise moves and not replacing the fundamentals of a well executed, Western Boxing uppercut that's preferred by MMA fighters of the highest levels.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nope, it's not a better uppercut....it's just another technique to uppercut.

This is just "dirty Boxing". It's not that Boxers don't know how to do this, it's just illegal in Boxing. But this is perfectly legal in Muay Thai and MMA, and is also used but why not ALL the time if you think it's so superior over a Boxing uppercut? Once again, potentially millions of $$$$$$$ can be on the line in a UFC fight so they'd use it all the time if it was that awesome.

There are risks & rewards to everything in fighting. This uppercut you're showing, based on this video, is:

1. Risking your main point of defense, which is the other hand guarding the head, to sloppily clinch the head for more power into the uppercut.

2. The other point of defense is to keep the chin tucked, and he ain't even doing that.

3. The counter to this would be.....and this happens a lot in Muay Thai but with better techniques...it's called the "crash clinch" where you protect your own head w/1 guard and quickly slide/hop in for a 1/2 clinch, then you can elbow, uppercut, but better to knee and/or elbow......If my head gets pulled down & held down like this, then I really suck as a MT fighter....but I would immediately protect my face with my left hand as I'm expecting a knee to my face, which is much worse than this loopy uppercut.....and immediately throw an overhand right that's looping in like a haymaker to his temple as his left hand is down. I could get hurt or he could get hurt = risks & rewards. He's in better control/position, but this head grabbing/clinching move rarely works on 2 fresh fighters starting out in round 1....you don't just let someone half clinch you like this.

4. This is a low level, smoker fight and they're both tired....so it's understandable that this 1/2 clinch can be easily pulled off. But it doesn't prove at all that this is a better uppercut. It's almost like saying a Superman-punch is the best straight cross variation. Or the overhand right is better than both. They're all situational, but Superman-punches and throwing an uppercut this way, should be used sparingly as surprise moves and not replacing the fundamentals of a well executed, Western Boxing uppercut that's preferred by MMA fighters of the highest levels.

I'm pretty ignorant of the finer points of boxing rules. What's illegal about it?

 

[drop bear]

I'm pretty ignorant of the finer points of boxing rules. What's illegal about it?

Can't hold the head and hit.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Can't hold the head and hit.

Thanks. I thought that might be it, but really didn't know.

 

[TMA17]

Judo certainly still seemed strong. If nothing else, Olympic competition puts it back in folks' minds every so often.

From what I am told, Judo is still very popular worldwide as is wrestling. BJJ is probably the fastest growing in the U.S.

 

[Hanzou]

From what I am told, Judo is still very popular worldwide as is wrestling. BJJ is probably the fastest growing in the U.S.

Yeah, Judo got eclipsed by wrestling in the states since it is readily available for free in every secondary school in the United States. There were even cases of wrestlers entering Judo competitions and winning handily. Unfortunately due to Judo's nature, wrestlers couldn't grow the sport because Judo has a set amount of tactics and movements and actively restrict wrestling techniques in competition.

Part of the reason Bjj exploded in the US was because former wrestlers flooded into Bjj gyms and their techniques and tactics were adopted by the Bjj community and allowed into competition. Bjj/MMA competition and instruction offers former high school and collegiate wrestlers employment opportunities after their high school/collegiate career is over.

 

[TMA17]

Makes total sense.

If I had to rank the order of importance of the 3 aforementioned grappling arts, I'd put wrestling as the best base, followed by BJJ as an add-on or stand alone, then Judo. I've watched youtube videos of Judokas holding their own against wrestlers, but I think wrestling is more effective in a broader sense, especially when not wearing much clothing. Judo players have tremendous grip too and explosiveness. In a fraction of a second your planted on the ground. In winter time Judo would be most useful LOL.

 

[Hanzou]

Makes total sense.

If I had to rank the order of importance of the 3 aforementioned grappling arts, I'd put wrestling as the best base, followed by BJJ as an add-on or stand alone, then Judo. I've watched youtube videos of Judokas holding their own against wrestlers, but I think wrestling is more effective in a broader sense, especially when not wearing much clothing. Judo players have tremendous grip too and explosiveness. In a fraction of a second your planted on the ground. In winter time Judo would be most useful LOL.

Yeah, I would start kids with wrestling at a young age (its safer than Judo), and then transition them over to Bjj in their teen years. Frankly I think Wrestling translates very well into how Bjj works, with Bjj's top positions working extremely well with the pressure tactics that wrestlers are used to doing. Bjj even offers No-gi grappling that allows wrestlers to grapple the way they're used to, making the transition from wrestling to competitive Bjj even easier.

I think in about a decade wresting and Bjj are going to blend to the point where we'll have a grappling art where wrestling will be the takedown and top game, while Bjj will be the bottom, submission, and escape game.

Some would argue that we're already at that point. I know I was constantly checking out wrestling vids on YT to get some tips on takedowns and top pressure.

I think Judo will continue just being Judo. I think that's just the way Judoka want it to be. It's certainly what Kano wanted it to be.

 

[TMA17]

I'm no expert but that sounds about right to me from everything I've read and have observed watching MMA etc. Wrestling combined with BJJ is just fantastic. If you can be decent at both you're going to be a beast.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm no expert but that sounds about right to me from everything I've read and have observed watching MMA etc. Wrestling combined with BJJ is just fantastic. If you can be decent at both you're going to be a beast.

Yeah, no doubt. Most prominent BJJ players and MMA fighters recommend wrestling as a grappling base. That leaves the gates wide open for a better overall form of grappling to take shape. I wonder if it will remain being called BJJ in the long run.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think in about a decade wresting and Bjj are going to blend to the point where we'll have a grappling art where wrestling will be the takedown and top game, while Bjj will be the bottom, submission, and escape game.

Some would argue that we're already at that point. I know I was constantly checking out wrestling vids on YT to get some tips on takedowns and top pressure.

Yeah, when I'm looking at takedown and control videos online, I sometimes can't tell whether it's wrestling or BJJ, unless they tell me or are wearing a gi. It's pretty cool to see two arts blending so well.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, Judo got eclipsed by wrestling in the states since it is readily available for free in every secondary school in the United States. There were even cases of wrestlers entering Judo competitions and winning handily. Unfortunately due to Judo's nature, wrestlers couldn't grow the sport because Judo has a set amount of tactics and movements and actively restrict wrestling techniques in competition.

Part of the reason Bjj exploded in the US was because former wrestlers flooded into Bjj gyms and their techniques and tactics were adopted by the Bjj community and allowed into competition. Bjj/MMA competition and instruction offers former high school and collegiate wrestlers employment opportunities after their high school/collegiate career is over.

Another issue there is that while wrestling is readily available in school, it's pretty tough to learn wrestling outside of school. So you got all these people who are great wrestlers, who no longer have any place to train, and not really anywhere to compete.

 

[Hanzou]

Another issue there is that while wrestling is readily available in school, it's pretty tough to learn wrestling outside of school. So you got all these people who are great wrestlers, who no longer have any place to train, and not really anywhere to compete.

Yep. Like I said, a lot of them wind up in Bjj or MMA. If they stick around long enough, they become competitors, instructors, and coaches.

At lower levels, No-gi Bjj competitions tend to attract a lot of ex-high school and college wrestlers.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah, no doubt. Most prominent BJJ players and MMA fighters recommend wrestling as a grappling base. That leaves the gates wide open for a better overall form of grappling to take shape. I wonder if it will remain being called BJJ in the long run.

The most common counter used for single leg, or double legs is:

- double under hooks (for western wrestling).
- double hands back neck downward pulling (for Chinese wrestling).

What's the most common counter for single leg, or double legs used in BJJ?