Most Dangerous (as in Useless) Self-Defense Technique Taught?

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by wingchun100, Jan 20, 2017.

  1. JR 137

    JR 137 Grandmaster

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    Choke holds are useless?

    Hopefully you thought dangerous and not "dangerous (as in useless)" as the thread title says.
     
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  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    What do you find useless about a choke hold?
     
  3. ewright909

    ewright909 White Belt

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    What I meant was that choke holds and head locks are very dangerous and can often win a fight. But if not done correctly it is an advantage to the person in the choke hold. For example, side headlock gives the the person being choked the advantage of having their arms are free and close to the legs of the attacker. They can sweep them. punch them or even kick them.

    Besides, It will put you in prison. Even Police are banned from doing it.

    So Yes they are dangerous and not useless. But if not done right it is bad for the choker. And Therefore it is useless to the Choker when, at times, the person being choked uses their move against them.
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Okay, based on that, I don't see the "useless" part as applying to proper choke holds, but to poorly-taught ones. I've never seen the side headlock taught as a self-defense move (though it is taught as an attack to defend against). And that could be said of nearly any group of techniques: a poorly executed punch can be useless, as can a throw, as can a joint lock/break.
     
  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When you choke your opponent from behind, put all his weight on your back with his legs off the ground (or you can just drag his body backward), your opponent's arms cannot reach you.

    When your feet is off the ground and your hands can't reach to your opponent, there will be no counters.


    [​IMG]

    The requirement to execute a successful "head lock" is to be able to

    - control your opponent's leading arm, and
    - crash his spine side way.

    If either one is not obtained, you should give up that "head lock" and switch to "over hook".

    In the following picture, he has controlled his opponent's leading left arm. He also bent his opponent's spine. His opponent only has one free right arm. It's very difficult to have any effective counter with one free arm when his body structure has been crashed.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Nothing is entirely without counters. If someone had me in that first position, I'd probably look for an escape over my own head (an escape we train for one of our later techniques). It has risks, but beats staying in the position.
     
  7. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    There's actually a very simple takedown from that position that will land the headlockee in side control.

    Edit. This is very similar to what I wad taught.

     
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  8. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    This is a good example that when you apply "head lock", you don't have a fully control on your opponent's leading arm and you give your opponent "2 free arms".

    If you can have "3 points control" on your opponent's leading arm by controlling his

    - wrist (by your arm pit),
    - elbow (by your left hand),
    - upper arm (by your right hand),

    you will only give him one free arm and his counter can be limited.

     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll have to see if I can get a student to do this - I want to see if it limits my usual responses.
     
  10. JR 137

    JR 137 Grandmaster

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    Anything done incorrectly will be potentially dangerous for the person doing it incorrectly.
     
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  11. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    If you're holding him, he doesn't need to hold you. When you're controlling his three points, he just needs to keep you from letting go as he falls to complete the takedown I referenced.

    One of the many epiphanies I've had was when I realized that control goes both ways. When you're controlling me, it also limits you. In this case, if you're controlling my wrist and elbow, but it's where I want the, anyway, I'm good. And in this case, I don't care if you're controlling my head. All I need in order to complete my takedown is to keep one foot on the outside and block your far leg to pull you down to your back. The more control you exert on me, the more likely I am to succeed in my takedown.
     
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  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    This is what I was wanting to try out. This 3-point control is a 2-way street. They have control of my arm. I have a strong connection to their center. That connection is likely all I need to use exactly the kind of counter you posted.
     
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  13. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If your throw doesn't hurt your opponent, you still get that side mount to start your ground game.

     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's a throw - not the same situation as the headlock hold. But the principle Steve referred to applies there, as well. The more securely you attach to me, the more ability I have to move your center. If you move mine first, you win. If not, I win.
     
  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Why would anyone want to get a "head lock" and just standing there?

    The only reason that you put a "head lock" on your opponent is to take him down. That "head lock" should be a "hay-maker" that you strike your fore arm on the back of your opponent's head. After you have almost knock him out half way, you then spin your body, and take him down.

     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
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  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You brought up the headlock in response to a post about chokes. A choke is not a throw.
     
  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    But to use "head lock" to choke your opponent, you have to

    - stand behind your opponent like a "back to back hip throw", or
    - stand in front of him with a "reverse head lock" (guillotine), or
    - be in front of him in the ground game with your back on the ground and his chest on the ground while his head is up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm missing your point. In response to someone's post about chokes, you posted information about the 3-point control of a headlock.
     
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  19. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I don't have 25 minutes to spare. Can you be a bit more specific?
     
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  20. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I believe the discussion was something like this:

    - First someone said choke won't work. I then post a clip and said if you can use "head lock" to choke someone from behind, it will be difficult for him to get away (since his hands cannot reach you and his feet are off the ground).
    - Someone then posted a clip to show a "head lock" used with both of his opponent's arms are free. He then said that you can counter a "head lock" easily.
    - I then posted a clip with 3 points control to show that if you can have full control on your opponent's leading arm, he will only have 1 free arm left to counter you.
    - Someone then said that a tight "head lock" control will give your opponent a chance to pull/drag you back down.
    - I then said that if you can throw him forward before he can drag you down backward, you will get side mount and you can start your ground game from there.

    We did start from

    choke -> head lock -> throw123
     

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