masaaki ryu and the kusari

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Aiki Lee, May 30, 2013.

  1. Aiki Lee

    Aiki Lee Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    67
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    DeKalb, IL
    I’m curious if anyone has an answer why the Masaaki Ryu is not listed as one of the systems within the X-kans. It is my understanding that the training of the kusari fundo found in the X-kanscomes from Masaaki Ryu. Is this true? If so, why is it not part of the ryuhalisted when the systems studied are mentioned?
    Is that Hatsumi is not Soke of thatart?
    Is it that adding it would make thenumber of arts in the system 10 as opposed to 9 which I believe is a number of significance in Japanese culture?
    What are your thoughts?
     
  2. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,055
    Likes Received:
    955
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia


    Okay.

    First thing, it's "Masaki Ryu", not "Masaaki Ryu"... it ain't named for Hatsumi, ha! Next, while Hatsumi certainly learnt it, or parts of it, from Nawa Yumio (and possibly his son, there are some slightly conflicting reports), that doesn't mean that it's transmitted within the Bujinkan, because, well, it's not. A range of aspects of it (the design of the weapon, some technical methods etc) have been adopted into the Bujinkan, but that's very different to having Masaki Ryu as part of the Bujinkan itself. It's probably safer to suggest that the kusari fundo/manriki gusari methods in the Bujinkan are highly influenced by Hatsumi's training in Masaki Ryu, rather than saying that the methods are directly taken from there.



    Abso-damn-lutely not!!! Never claimed to be, either. Interestingly, there are a couple of branches around, though... as well as the one Hatsumi trained in, there's also a line transmitted with Suio Ryu, who have a larger focus on Kusarigama within their approach...



    Nope, nothing to do with it.

    Well, you'd be better off asking why Asayama Ichiden Ryu, or Bokuden Ryu aren't listed as part of the Bujinkan, as Hatsumi actually attained Menkyo Kaiden, at least in Asayama Ichiden, if not Bokuden, from Ueno Takashi... certainly far more from there has found it's way into the Bujinkan (much of the Te Hodoki comes from Asayama Ichiden, some short stick work comes directly from there, there are some variations on techniques from Asayama shown in his old "Stick Fighting" book, he has an entire video/DVD covering part of Bokuden Ryu [although, honestly, not the way the line actually shows it, with changes to structure, movement, naming conventions etc, while still retaining essentially the same "techniques"...], and so on). But the reason is, simply, Hatsumi isn't the head of those lines of those Ryu.

    Some Masaki Ryu clips for you, just for fun though....






    The line taught with Suio Ryu, referred to as the Fukuhara-ha Masaki Ryu Kusarigamajutsu


    Both Suio Ryu and Fukuhara-ha Masaki Ryu shown together.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  3. Meitetsu

    Meitetsu Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    The Jinenkan has Jinen Ryu Kusari Fundo, which was crafted by Manaka Sensei. He based the overall length of the Kusari fundo on Masaki Ryu. Sensei said he trained with or saw ( cant remember which) someone from Masaki Ryu a long time ago, but that Jinen Ryu was mainly crafted from his experiences with Kotoryu and so on.
     
  4. Aiki Lee

    Aiki Lee Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    67
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    DeKalb, IL
    Thanks for the correction, Chris. So it’s Masaki Ryu not Maaaasaaaaki Ryu. Lol.
    I was aware Hatsumi didn’t claim to have sokeship of masaki ryu. My question was if he left it out because he wasn’t soke of it and only wanted to include the list of arts he was the head of. I also didn’t know he studied Bokuden Ryu so thanks for that information as well.

    Thanks for posting those clips by the way! I found them very interestingand was really impressed with the kusarigama work. That thing takes a lot ofskill to wield!
    Meitetsu, you say Manaka crafted his kusarijutsu from experiences in Koto Ryu? What is the connection between his use of the chain weapons and Koto ryu?
    Also, a follow up to the both of you. Are the kusari fundo, kusarigama, and kyoketsu shoge connected to any of the nine arts of the Takamatsu line or is there no connection and anything derived from them comes from these other sources Chris mentioned?
    Thank you for your time.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2013
  5. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,055
    Likes Received:
    955
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia


    Ha, yep! Named for the founder of Masaki Ryu, Masaki Dannoshin Toshiyoshi.



    No, he left it out because he doesn't teach it. As far as Bokuden Ryu, Hatsumi's "Shinken Shiraha Dome" video/DVD is primarily material from there, if you want to see some. Of course, as I said, it's not really the same as is taught in the ryu itself....



    Not a problem.



    I'm sure Eric can correct me here if I'm wrong, but I read that as being that Manaka has used the Koto Ryu as a basis for his methods of Kusarifundojutsu, not that there was any within Koto Ryu that he took for Jinen Ryu. I'm not aware of any major or direct connection with Koto Ryu and chain weaponry.

    Hmm... that's not really that easy to answer, as it's a lot of "yes, but no" and "no, but yes"... Let's see how clear we can make it.

    We'll start with Kyoketsu Shoge.

    The Kyoketsu Shoge is claimed to have been invented by Hachiryu Nyudo, who was said to be the teacher of Hakuunsai Tozawa, founder of Gyokko Ryu. According to this history, the weapon was a precursor to the Kusarigama. As Hakuunsai is also linked in with Hakuun Ryu Ninjutsu, which was one of the foundations of Togakure Ryu, there are connections with both the Kyoketsu Shoge and Kusari Gama there as well. In terms of flexible weaponry as a whole, there are said to be variations on the Kukishin Ryu Jojutsu using a Chigiriki, or a Shikomi Zue employing a chain, but nothing official in the waza of the Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu is supposed to be known for it's use of nawanage (literally "throwing rope", sometimes described as a kind of lasso), Kumogakure Ryu has it's Ippon Sugi Nobori (a cedar-tree climber, essentially a tube with spikes and a rope threaded through the center), and Shinden Fudo Ryu has Hojojutsu (but, it really must be said, used in a much more "regular" fashion than the "rope" methods seen in the Bujinkan by and large). And there's also supposed to be some form of connection with Kukishinden and the Kusarigama... but no Ryu has any historical connection to the Kusarifundo.

    The flip side of all of this is that there are no techniques for any of these... at best, they are taught as a series of principles within certain Ryu. When it comes down to it, there are no techniques for any flexible weaponry currently found in any of the Bujinkan Ryu-ha. Manaka actually created the Jinen Ryu specifically to cover what he felt were the major gaps in the weaponry methods of the Bujinkan Ryu he was taught... namely, by forming an Iai syllabus, Nito, Jutte, Tessen, and Kusarijutsu. With the exception of Jutte, none of these exist in the present forms of the Bujinkan Ryu... and the Jutte is a rather small syllabus in Kukishinden Ryu, when it all comes down to it (with only Kodachi being smaller).

    So, yes, there are connections, but then again, there isn't any transmission of any usage or methods... did that help?
     
  6. Meitetsu

    Meitetsu Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Manaka Sensei used the years of intense training he did in the other Ryu-ha to craft the Jinenryu. There is no Kusari Fundo in any of the Koto/Gyokko/Takagi..etc Ryu that I am aware of. And as Chris said there were very few (Jutte) or no techniques (Ni-to, Kusari Fundo...) for many weapons despite all the material passed down. Hence Jinen Ryu's existence.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  7. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,055
    Likes Received:
    955
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Thanks for that, Eric! Out of interest, I know there's Tantojutsu in Jinen Ryu (again, lacking in any of the other Ryu), is there a Kodachi syllabus in Jinen Ryu? As there're only three kata (with a few Ura Gata each), it's the smallest weapon syllabus in the Bujinkan, so I was wondering if Manaka Unsui has bolstered it in his Ryu...
     
  8. Meitetsu

    Meitetsu Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    No, there is no Jinen Ryu Kodachi. The topic of Kodachi comes up sometimes and he has given some instruction on it, but as far as a set of techniques by Sensei, there dont seem to be any.
     
  9. Aiki Lee

    Aiki Lee Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2006
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    67
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    DeKalb, IL
    Yes Chris, that did help. It confirmed some of the things I have been told about the flexible weapons while filling in a few gaps. Thanks again.

    Where I was going about inquiring about Koto ryu and Manaka’s Jinen Ryu is if you could explain why Koto ryu may have had a more significant impact on its formation as opposed to the other arts.
    I appreciate the time both of you are taking to discuss this with me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  10. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,055
    Likes Received:
    955
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Thanks, Eric. That matches what I've seen, always good to get confirmation. The only Kodachi I've seen from the Jinenkan is the Kukishin Ryu material (three kata, each with another two or three Ura Gata, and three kamae). There is an old story of Manaka showing some US military guys some Kodachi at one point, so I wasn't sure if it was something he'd expanded on.

    I don't know that I'd say that Koto Ryu had a more significant impact... there's quite a bit of Kukishin influence there that I see as well, particularly in the Jutte work. With regards to why Koto was used as a base for the Kusarifundojutsu of Jinen Ryu, honestly, only Manaka Unsui could answer that.... so maybe Eric could ask. If I was to guess, or put myself in the same shoes, I'd suggest that Koto was used as a primary template (so to speak) due to it's direct nature, and the way the footwork is well suited to short weapon usage.
     
  11. Meitetsu

    Meitetsu Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2012
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Yeah, sorry its more Manaka Sensei said "I created it based on my knowledge of Kotoryu, gyokkoryu etc..." I don't even know if Kotoryu was the first mentioned. Basically as Kusari fundo and Jutte are short "rather weak weapons" the Jinen Ryu techniques focus on Taihenjutsu.
     
  12. Troy Wideman

    Troy Wideman Green Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2009
    Messages:
    103
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    HI Chris,

    I will comment on one of your statements about there being no flexible weapons in the Takamatsu den. In Takagi yoshin Ryu there is techniques on how to fight with Hachi maki. They take on a very similar characteristic to kusari fundo. I guess it depends on what you classify as a weapon. Lol. Interesting coversation guys, something that has been lacking on the forums lately.


    Kind Regards,

    Troy Wideman


     
  13. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,055
    Likes Received:
    955
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Hi Troy,

    I haven't come across any use of hachimaki in the Mizuta-den... I'm assuming it's in the Ishitani-den? From all accounts I've come across, there aren't any weapons transmitted with the Mizuta-den, and (as Himura has been discussing the Bujinkan, rather than all Takamatsu arts, in this instance referring to "the nine arts of the Takamatsu line", which, to me, implies the Bujinkan only) that was all I was talking about there.

    With regards to the use of hachimaki there, are there formal waza, or more a series of principles taught?
     
  14. ShugyoIkkan

    ShugyoIkkan White Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    As has been pointed out in the past, it's better to not make firm statements regarding what does not exist in the nine ryū of the Bujinkan if you one does not have any connection to them or their Sōke.

    There are techniques for "flexible weaponry" in the nine ryū, both named and unnamed. The most shining example is Gyokko Ryū, where there is both kusarifundōjutsu and torinawajutsu.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Todd Schweinhart

    Todd Schweinhart White Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    I also agree with Mr. Wideman regarding Takagi ryu, including the Mizuta den. There are a variety of weapons taught in the yurushi for most branches of this school.

    I would also agree with the first part of "ShugyoIkkan's" statement above however the latter part of the statement happens all too often. I would love to discuss this either in forum or offline with you. I am curious if this is part of Hatsumi's line passed from Takamatsu or if this is some scroll that is unrelated. I have asked others about this and interestingly can't find anyone to discuss or show proof. I have also seen a lot of documentation surrounding these schools and would enjoy seeing "proof" by the ones making claims.

    Best,
    Todd Schweinhart

    WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM
    Louisville KY
     
  16. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,055
    Likes Received:
    955
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Personally, I find it both odd and disturbing that the Bujinkan membership seems to be unique in not knowing what is in their own system(s), with a common rhetoric being "unless you ask Soke, how can you know? You're not Soke". Well, firstly, the idea of knowing what is in a system is actually quite standard... even in systems where certain subjects are "secret", what they are focused on are known. It's known that there are secret methods for, say, sword... or strategy... or jujutsu... or anything. What those methods are can be, and often are, kept secret... but it's still known what they are about. Next, the idea of "if one does not have any connection to them or their Soke" is, again, a false reasoning. For one thing, there is a definite connection, just not a current one (personally or politically, when it comes to the Soke of the Ryu), so the reasoning fails there. Next, the content of the Ryu hasn't changed from the decades we (for example) were a part of the organization. Thirdly, there is such a thing as corroborating evidence... when all sources except for a small minority (who also claim, in most cases, not to truly know one way or the other) state something, including, in cases, Hatsumi himself, it can be pretty much taken as correct.

    There is a desperate desire in some sections of the Bujinkan (or, at least, it's online representations) to see all the Ryu-ha as composite systems, covering all aspects, including many, if not all weapons that can be thought of, despite there being no evidence or support for such ideas (in the Ryu, in the teachings of the Bujinkan, in any other lines, in any other historical traditions, in the context of the various systems themselves, and so on). The most prevalent seem to be the supporters of a particular instructor, and, to be frank, from everything I've seen of him, I'm not sold on the credibility of such information.

    But, to be clear, there is no kusarifundojutsu or torinawajutsu in Gyokko Ryu. There was no kusarifundo in any of the Bujinkan arts prior to Hatsumi, so the only way there could be any would be if he put it there. Torinawajutsu (Hojojutsu) is found in Shinden Fudo Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu teaches Nawanagejutsu (which is quite different), and Hatsumi has his own expression of using a rope (which doesn't fit anything historical from any system I've come across... for a range of reasons). I would also be fairly convinced that such things are found in various lines of Takagi Ryu (I've seen it in some not related to the Bujinkan, for instance), especially considering the connection to Takenouchi Ryu (and the story of the initial meeting...). I'm going to need more than an anonymous claim that "well, there are" to change my mind on that, as the idea doesn't fit in a number of ways.

    Hi Todd,

    I'm familiar with the weaponry methods of a number of lines of Takagi Ryu, as well as the concepts of the Yurushi Den... but haven't seen anything like that for the Mizuta Den. From what I've seen, it's an import from the Ishitani Den (when taught in the Bujinkan), combined with, how to put this, modern created additions based on the ideas and principles found there (such as the Iai methods... there aren't any in the Ishitani or Mizuta-Den Takagi lines. I've trained in Iai in a related system, for the record... and I know of Paul Richardson's seminar with yourself when he was teaching what was called Takagi Yoshin Ryu Iai, as well as Kodachi, but no other source supports the presence of any Iai waza). That said, I'm quite interested in Troy's comments here, knowing what his credentials in this Ryu (both lines) are....
     
  17. ShugyoIkkan

    ShugyoIkkan White Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    And you know this how exactly?

    It's very amusing when people state things strongly and then later, when they have been proven wrong, see them come up with pathetic excuses for their mistakes...

    So, carry on believing that you know everything about the nine ryūha (from books, internet and hearsay).

    Just a small note however...



    Indeed. It hasn't. But Wayne Roy did not receive full transmission in the nine ryū. In fact, looking at his movement and his students' movements, it can be argued that he didn't receive any transmission at all. In any ryū. Being a member of the Bujinkan, and training in the presence of Hatsumi sensei, doesn't mean one is receiving transmission in the ryū. Receiving a list of kata, or even the order of the movements within the kata, isn't real transmission either. Anyone can get that. Just
    because you are well read and knowledgeable it doesn't mean you can make definite statements regarding the ryū, and I hope that people who read your posts on this forum (and others) realize that you are just a man with an opinion, who - like most people - holds very few facts regarding the ryū.
     
  18. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Messages:
    21,586
    Likes Received:
    1,993
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Northern VA
    Perhaps, before lobbing insults and challenges to people's credibility, you might share something about your own qualifications to speak?
     
  19. Todd Schweinhart

    Todd Schweinhart White Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Mr. Parker, if you are familiar with the yurushi then you should also know that they exist within the Mizuta Den as well as just about every other branch of Takagi ryu. In addition there are other scrolls, as well as possibly other schools, sometimes taught within or along with Takagi Ryu that would contain weapons etc.

    To address another point, it is also a know fact that Hatsumi didn't teach certain portions of the ryu to very senior members, for whatever reason, and that most people have no true idea of the ryu content as they practice a system created from the schools and not the schools themselves. An excellent example of this is Manaka sensei. A great budoka I have experienced many times but himself said that he only learned a portion of Muto Dori and didn't have other sets of kata within Takagi Ryu. This is actually quite shocking due to his extended time with Hatsumi sensei and dedication to the arts. This doesn't take away from Manaka sensei in the least bit and I only mention it as a clear example of Hatsumi sensei's unorthodox teaching approach.

    Mr. Parker, I have had Paul Richardson in visiting my school on several occasions as I have other friends of mine. When you say you know of the workshop, I am not sure that means you read about it on web or that you possibly know Paul. If you do in fact know him, you can ask his opinion directly about my involvement with Takagi Ryu and its branches.

    It is also important to realize we are all "seekers on the path", so to speak, which makes it difficult to say something does or does not have material without some intimate knowledge of the school. However, I think anyone has the right to inquire about sources and validity of information when someone claims something outside the norm. I am interested in the SFR and Gyokko Ryu claims from a research perspective. I am quite sure most of that material existed in most koryu in Japan. Just not so sure that the document being referenced earlier is from the same lineage and would be open to discuss it privately.

    Best,
    Todd Schweinhart

    WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM
     
  20. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,055
    Likes Received:
    955
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    "Proven wrong"? Really? By who? You came along, made your second (anonymous) post for the forum, stating that there "is kusarifundojutsu and torinawajutsu in Gyokko Ryu", without any backup, support, or evidence, let alone any comment on where such knowledge comes from, and you're calling that "proof"? As far as "pathetic excuses", read again. I answered how I came to my understanding, as well as the support for such an idea.

    Oh, and my understanding comes from a much more diverse range of sources than has been intimated or even guessed at, for the record... inside and outside the Bujinkan.

    Of course...

    And we're back to this again...

    Look, I get that most Bujinkan don't like us, and frankly, I don't give a damn. More importantly, the entire premise of this paragraph is rather off, as well as missing a few salient points. We can start with the "didn't receive any transmission at all" comment... bluntly, I have yet to see any evidence of anyone receiving any "true transmission" in any of the Ryu-ha from Hatsumi. And yeah, I'm talking about something far more than a list of kata as well. As far as "just because you're well read and knowledgeable it doesn't mean...", hmm.... you really are missing where that information comes from.

    Hi Todd,

    I'm very aware of the other lines, the weaponry systems, the variances, and so on, as well as the yurushi no den within many lines... but, as I said, what is known as the yurushi within the Mizuta-den seems (to me) to be taken from the Ishitani-den, rather than being the Mizuta-den itself.

    Completely agreed with the first sentence (particularly the statement that the Bujinkan teaches a system created from the schools [Budo Taijutsu... but it's origins are more than that, of course], and not the Ryu themselves). But a large part of my information comes not from relying on people who've trained part....Manaka, to use your example, didn't receive Menkyo in Takagi Yoshin Ryu, only Gyokko and Togakure, so him not having the whole system is fine (from that perspective).

    I didn't mean to imply anything negative about yourself, or Paul's seminar and teachings there, my apologies if it came across that way. I was more pointing out that the claim of Takagi Ryu Iai goes against the claims of pretty much everyone else, including and up to Hatsumi, for the record. Paul wasn't the only one to teach such things, he wasn't the first, he won't be the last, but that doesn't mean there was actually any Iai in Takagi Ryu (Mizuta-den... or Ishitani, for that matter).

    So my claims, which match all other known information, the comments and claims of various Soke and Menkyo holders, people who are ranked specifically in the schools and so on, are the ones that are "outside the norm", and should be questioned? I agree that claims should be questioned, but I disagree that claims that match common understanding should be dismissed, questioned, or be attempted to be discredited because someone doesn't like who is saying it... and I see that a fair bit.

    You might want to do some more reading of what was in various Koryu, then... because, as a rule, it wasn't. But, for the record, this is an open discussion forum, and it's considered bad form (not to mention technically against the rules) to invite private conversation rather than open discussion in the threads... just a heads up.123
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page
any 1-2 colors paracord kusari fundo flexible weapon japan martial arts ninjutsu
,
fundo kusari kamae msr
,
jinen ryu kusarifundo
,
lineage masaki ryu kusarijutsu images
,
masaki ryu and the kusari fundo
,

nawa yumio kusari kamae

,
yumio nawa