Is that an accusation?
Martial Talk's GMA Martial Arts Lineages
- Thread starter BigJavi973
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BigJavi973
Orange Belt
- Thread Starter
- #202
no of course not. It was a generalized statement!
If you train "sport" and "sport" is your only goal, you may think there is nothing wrong to fight like this. Through "sport", you may develop some bad habit.
It's a bad habit for fighting, not for competing in that particular sport. If someone's only goal is competing in wrestling, then it doesn't matter that the stance shown is sub-optimal for fighting any more than it matters that it is sub-optimal for playing basketball.If you train "sport" and "sport" is your only goal, you may think there is nothing wrong to fight like this. Through "sport", you may develop some bad habit.
Hopefully if a wrestler also wants to be able to fight, they will figure out which details need to change from the sport application.
You stated in your initial post:
Eclectic training means that you will end up with something that is not a specific art at all and negates the whole concept of lineage.
If you end up teaching this eclectic mix of yours at some point in the future putting a "lineage" to it is going to be misleading at best. Not all paradigms share the importance you place on lineage though. I'd say for most of the people in this industry that I respect the most I couldn't tell you much at all about their lineage and have no idea who they trained with.
If you train "sport" and "sport" is your only goal, you may think there is nothing wrong to fight like this. Through "sport", you may develop some bad habit.
That is one sport, one that doesn't involve striking. I suspect if they where facing off with someone trying to hit them they would stand a little different. I also suspect that if one of those guys wanted to take someone down there wouldn't be much at all most people could do to stop them.
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BigJavi973
Orange Belt
- Thread Starter
- #207
and you dont agree that you need strong roots? I thought that was a given in martial arts
I just disagree with you as too what constitutes strong roots.
Lineage says nothing about quality of technique, quality of instruction or really anything beyond trivial things in most cases. If you are being groomed to head a historical system or take over a organization it might mean something.
Now you've also trained in boxing and kickboxing apparently, in those styles lineage doesn't really mean a lot. Did you sit down with your boxing coach and have him draw out a lineage chart for you tracing himself back to John Graham Chambers? Why not?
Why not, if what he teaches works.
I don't care who he is, who taught him, what name he gives or where we train. The only thing that concerns me is what he teaches me.
Some of the most useless and nonsensical bull I have been taught has been by legitimate high ranking instructors in legitimate and established arts.
I think it's pretty clear that the way it's being used here is simply a list or diagram of who trained who.
For example, my Moo Duk Kwan lineage is
HWANG, Kee -> LEE, Kang Ik
KIM Wang H "Bobby" (initially trained under GM HWANG, then GM LEE) -> VALDEZ CR -> L'il ole me.
Male is a gender. There is no such thing as a male species. Any species that was entirely male would die out in that very generation.
"Strong roots" is a pretty much meaningless term in this context. Lineage has every bit as much importance as you personally choose to award it. No more. No less.
Knowing the details of your lineage certainly isn't necessary to be an effective martial artist.
Yup, there is a lot of that unfortunately.
Okay, I guess I can make an effort at a more complete list of people I've learned from ...Oh, sure, take the easy way.
What about the other arts you've studied? Hmmm?
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu: I trained mostly under Shawn Havens, Larry Turner, and Kevin Schneider. I got my black belt from Larry and Kevin. All three were originally students of Steve Hayes. Larry and Kevin went on to become direct students of Masaaki Hatsumi, while Shawn ended up joining the Jinenkan and becoming a student under Manaka. I was probably active in the Bujinkan for about 8 years or so and still occasionally play with some of the concepts.
Kickboxing/Muay Thai: I trained for quite a few years under Oscar Kallet who was a black belt under Ray Casal and who holds instructor's licenses in Muay Thai under Chai Sirisute and Sakasem Kanthawong. I received my apprentice instructor's license in the TBA (Chai's organization) and a black belt in American kickboxing from Oscar. I've gotten off-and-on additional training since from Ernie Lake and Mike O'Donnell, as well as attending various classes and seminars from several notable Thai instructors. I've probably had something like 10 years worth of active training and a number of years since putting in occasional maintenance work to keep my skills from degrading and trying to polish a few aspects. Lately I've been working some with my friend Anton Spectorov, who is doing original research into figuring out the most effective ways of training striking in general.
BJJ: I started out with Mike Patt (who gave me my blue belt) and his instructor at the time, Jorge Gurgel. When I moved to Kentucky, I started training under Mike O'Donnell who eventually promoted me all the way up to black belt. As noted before, my lineage as far as promotions goes (Mitsuo Maeda) --> Carlos Gracie --> Carlson Gracie --> Carlson Gracie Jr. --> Mike O'Donnell --> me. Realistically though, I have learned from my seniors, my peers, my students, videos, seminars, folks I've met from other schools I've visited or who have visited us, and my own experiments as much or more as I have from Mike. If you look at the lineages of all the people I've learned from, they stretch through all corners of the BJJ community. I'm not sure exactly how long I've trained BJJ. It's probably been about 20 years, but maybe only 17-18 years since it became my primary art. I've also picked up a bit of Judo, Wrestling, and Sambo along the way, but I'm not very good at any of them in isolation so I just treat them as different aspects of my BJJ.
Boxing: Boxing has always been a supplemental art for me. I got my foundation as part of my kickboxing instruction from Oscar Kallet. Since then I've taken classes for a few months at a time from different instructors - can't remember all their names. Darrin Van Horn (2 x world champion) occasionally gives me some coaching as a thank you for the help I've given him with BJJ, but I don't work with him regularly enough to consider myself a genuine student of his. Despite not taking regular classes, I do make a point to do some regular practice to maintain my skills.
Yudansha Fighting Systems: This is an off-shoot of Danzan Ryu. I trained for a few years under Brian Johnson who was a student of the founder of the system, Mike Varos. I reached brown belt before Brian moved out of town and the school closed.
Kali: This is another system that I've just picked up in bits and pieces from different individuals over the years, most notably from Ernie Lake, who is a certified instructor in Inosanto-Lacoste blend, Sayoc Kali, and FCS (Filipino Combat systems - Ray Dianaldo's system). I've probably only had a year or two's worth of actual instruction, but I've spent enough time practicing what I've learned to have some functional fundamentals.
Wing Tsun: I've been training under @yak sao for a bit over a year. He can fill in the details of his lineage if he desires.
Capoeira: I've been training for about 9 months now under Ray "Charuto" Jordan. Capoeira lineages are kind of weird because everybody goes by their Capoeira nicknames, but we're under the Cordao de Ouro umbrella, going back to Mestre Suassuna.
SCA heavy weapons fighting: This is completely non-historical, but there are things to be learned from time spent competing in what is essentially a hard-contact stick-fighting sport. I spent probably a decade or so involved in the SCA and participated in heavy weapons fighting (both tournaments and field battles) during most of that time. Can't say I ever got really great at it, but I eventually got to be slightly above average. Names of the people I learned from wouldn't mean anything unless you are a SCAdian, because folks go by the names of the personas, but I was a member of the Barony of the Flaming Gryphon through the late 80s to the mid 90s.
Others: I've had bits and pieces of exposure to other systems - Bando, TKD, Silat, Karate, JKD, etc over the years. Time spent ranged from a few months to the occasional seminar. I don't count myself as a practitioner of any of those arts, but I've learned some things from the exposure.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
This isn't necessarily true, though. Technique, strategy and tactics are all different things. I've seen professional MMA fighters successfully compete in BJJ competitions. They know a lot of striking technique, but don't all of a sudden forget where they are and start pounding guys in guard. Even more subtly, I've seen strikers adapt seamlessly into multiple rulesets. Muay Thai boxers succeeding in western boxing matches, or vice versa, for example.If you train "sport" and "sport" is your only goal, you may think there is nothing wrong to fight like this. Through "sport", you may develop some bad habit.
Point is, I see a guy moving on his back in an upside down guard, I'm not too worried that he will forget where he is in a real life altercation and roll to his shoulders like that.
And, bad habit is subjective, too. If that guy on his shoulders is successful in his own context, he's doing just fine. If it leads him to success (by his own measure) than it may be a good habit for him, even if it a bad habit for you.
OP
BigJavi973
Orange Belt
- Thread Starter
- #214
love this!
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Dayum. I think you should start your own style! Problem is, your pedigree is so deep, you'd raise red flags on websites like this one.
The only person here who may be more of a mutt is Buka!
kuniggety
2nd Black Belt
I posted about BJJ earlier since it's my main art but I've studied a few others over the years.
Shuri-ryu: trained under Robert Bowles (8th Dan at the time and later took over as head of the organization). I trained for 2 1/2 yrs and made it to purple belt which was 4th kyu in the system.
Aikikai aikido: trained off an on for about 6 months. I honestly don't even remember my instructor... it was in Okinawa.
Bak sil Lum and 7 Star Northern Praying Mantis: Lance Brazil under Steven Baugh who had two lineages: Kam Yuen (NPM and BSL)/Chiu Chuck Kai and Ken Hui (BSL)/Johnny So. I took private lessons... studying 4 or 5 hrs a week for about a year. I practiced a lot outside and learned more than some dudes who had been studying for several years.
Chen family Taiji (Liu Yong lineage): I studied private lessons for 6 months and learned the intermediate Laojia 39-form.
Shuri-ryu: trained under Robert Bowles (8th Dan at the time and later took over as head of the organization). I trained for 2 1/2 yrs and made it to purple belt which was 4th kyu in the system.
Aikikai aikido: trained off an on for about 6 months. I honestly don't even remember my instructor... it was in Okinawa.
Bak sil Lum and 7 Star Northern Praying Mantis: Lance Brazil under Steven Baugh who had two lineages: Kam Yuen (NPM and BSL)/Chiu Chuck Kai and Ken Hui (BSL)/Johnny So. I took private lessons... studying 4 or 5 hrs a week for about a year. I practiced a lot outside and learned more than some dudes who had been studying for several years.
Chen family Taiji (Liu Yong lineage): I studied private lessons for 6 months and learned the intermediate Laojia 39-form.
As far as what I do myself in a fighting/free-sparring context, it pretty much is my own style. (When I'm attending someone else's classes, of course, I'm doing my best to emulate exactly what they are teaching and understand its function in the context of that art.)Dayum. I think you should start your own style! Problem is, your pedigree is so deep, you'd raise red flags on websites like this one.
The only person here who may be more of a mutt is Buka!
That's very different from creating my own system to teach to others. In order to do that I would have to figure out a lot of things so my students could get to the level I'm at or higher without taking as long as I did.
How should the curriculum be ordered? How much time should be devoted to each facet of training at different levels of student development? (i.e. drilling reps vs sparring vs scenario training vs flow drills/ striking vs grappling vs weapons/ throws vs ground fighting, etc, etc, etc) How best to transmit understanding of subtle details of body mechanics? How to make the principles coherent from the outset, rather than just feeding contradictory ideas to the students and hoping they figure out their own synthesis as I did. It gets rather involved, not to mention that I am still pretty mediocre at a few aspects that I would want to be central to my ideal art.
Right now I'm happy just teaching jiu-jitsu and studying various things to improve my own understanding and skills.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Andrew Green has been a respected member of this form for quite a few years. You don't need to take this kind of tone with him. Granted, anyone who does not wish to post their lineage is welcome to simply ignore the thread. However, your tone here is pretty disrespectful. Tone it down a bit, eh? It really is not necessary.
Since everyone else is posting their other training, I'll add mine. Don't worry, I don't have nearly Tony's pedigree.
Kodokan Judo: I studied for a time with Guy Jacobsohn in my teens. I have no idea who his instructor was. I actually don't remember how long I trained - a bit over a year, I think - and I never tested (come to think of it, I don't remember Guy ever testing anyone - I wonder if he just didn't do that).
Shotokan Karate: I started under Sensei Georgia (that's all I ever knew her as - I was 12), and trained with her for a few months. I picked the training up again a year later when Guy (my Judo instructor) added a Karate class. All told, probably something like 18-24 months. I have no recollection of testing (probably did with Sensei Georgia, and again don't recall Guy ever testing anyone).
(Ueshiba) Aikido: I have trained for short periods a few times when traveling. Mostly cross-training with good partners and working with students who came from that art, not so much formal training.
FMA: I took private lessons for a while (maybe a year, at most) with a guy who taught a blend (seemed about 80/20) of FMA and jujutsu (small-circle, I think). Last name was Adams.
The rest is just miscellaneous tinkerings and wanderings, mostly either visiting friends' dojos or attending seminars. The ones that had a pronounced impact that I can point to include Tang Soo Do, BJJ, wrestling, and Yanagi-ryu.
Kodokan Judo: I studied for a time with Guy Jacobsohn in my teens. I have no idea who his instructor was. I actually don't remember how long I trained - a bit over a year, I think - and I never tested (come to think of it, I don't remember Guy ever testing anyone - I wonder if he just didn't do that).
Shotokan Karate: I started under Sensei Georgia (that's all I ever knew her as - I was 12), and trained with her for a few months. I picked the training up again a year later when Guy (my Judo instructor) added a Karate class. All told, probably something like 18-24 months. I have no recollection of testing (probably did with Sensei Georgia, and again don't recall Guy ever testing anyone).
(Ueshiba) Aikido: I have trained for short periods a few times when traveling. Mostly cross-training with good partners and working with students who came from that art, not so much formal training.
FMA: I took private lessons for a while (maybe a year, at most) with a guy who taught a blend (seemed about 80/20) of FMA and jujutsu (small-circle, I think). Last name was Adams.
The rest is just miscellaneous tinkerings and wanderings, mostly either visiting friends' dojos or attending seminars. The ones that had a pronounced impact that I can point to include Tang Soo Do, BJJ, wrestling, and Yanagi-ryu.
Hyoho
2nd Black Belt
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Lineage usually means family and rather grandiose word to use. Connections is a better word. It's not me that's over generalizing.
Some of the previous posts hit the nail on the head. It's your sensei that matters. Not one one technique from " A" Sensei, another from "B" sensei. In Japan that what is called a champon (a Chinese mixed bowl of leftover food in a soup.
And most of all and most important is. You may be good but can you had it on to other to do the same or better?
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