Martial Talk's GMA Martial Arts Lineages

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by BigJavi973, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. BigJavi973

    BigJavi973 Orange Belt

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    I pretty much have taken the idea from that lineage website etc Feel free to post your lineage and see where it traces to. IMO it is very important to know where your specific Martial Art comes from. You don't want to learn from someone who learned from some guy in the back of a laundromat. How you post it is up to you. You can post a picture, video desribing your lineage, or you can just type it out.

    When giving the information, you do NOT have to provide their titles, example just as master, grandmaster, hanshi etc... Their names should be sufficient imo if you are taught by someone legit. A "title" does not make you legit. For example, I know a guy, that was an orange belt at the karate school I attend. At our school we dont promote fast so I guess he got frustrated and left went somewhere else.... that was like 4 years ago... all of a sudden he's being called "Master ......" I wont put his name out there not my concern but that was basically the example of how titles can be very misleading.

    I'll give a quick example of my shotokan lineage:

    Gichin Funakoshi ----> Teruyuki Okazaki ----> Maynard Miner ----> George Cofield ----> Thomas La Puppet Carroll ----> Victor Rodriguez ----> Maribel Ramos ----> Javier Guzman

    I also train with my teacher's teacher, V. Rodriguez. He is also student of Vincent Cruz and Victor Mosquera. Those lineages goes as follows:

    Gichin Funakoshi ---->Isao Obata/Hidetaka Nishiyama ----> Vincent Cruz ----> Victor Mosquera ----> Victor Rodriguez ----> Maribel Ramos ----> Javier Guzman

    Here is a pic to help out further explanations:
    [​IMG]

    So feel free to post and share! Maybe you'll run across someone that has trained in the same system/style you do or even from the same family tree! Osu!
     
  2. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    Carlos Gracie --> Carlson Gracie --> Carlson Gracie Jr.--> Mike O'Donnell --> Tony Dismukes (me)
     
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  3. BigJavi973

    BigJavi973 Orange Belt

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    Dont forget Mitsuyo Maeda! Osu!

    and for future ref for any and all... name your style at the beginning... even if its a hybrid style and has connections to your lineage!
     
  4. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Grandmaster

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    That guy in the back of the laundromat could be the biggest hidden treasure in the entire region. Don't discount him just because you don't know who he is. Some of the best training from the best people can be had in very informal situations, and some of those people are not famous.

    I fully understand the lineage issues, but at the same time, sometimes it just doesn't matter. Some lineages are almost unknown outside of their home territory, so the names would not mean anything to anyone here anyway.

    I only offer these comments to give some perspective. I'm not trying to derail the thread. Carry on.
     
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  5. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    The thing about lineages in Chinese martial arts is a lot of people claim them based on the fact they trained with the guy a couple times. And in CMA that is not how it works. If it was I would have a lineage to the Chen Family from Chen Zhenglei, 2 lineages to Yip Man, a couple to different Bagua families and at least 3 in Xingyiquan, Heck While I'm at it I might as well claim a Chen family lineage to Chen Xiawang too because I once had a rather long, and interesting, phone conversation with Ren Guangyi about Chen Taijiquan. But the reality of lineage in the CMA world is I have none of those. So be careful when asking about lineages in CMA.

    What I do have

    Chen Changxing > Yang Luchan > Yang Jianhou > Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Chieh > My Shifu > Me

    Chen Chingping > Wu Yuxiang > Li Yiyu > Hao Weizhang > Li Hsiang Yuan > Tung Ying Chieh > My Shifu > Me
     
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  6. BigJavi973

    BigJavi973 Orange Belt

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    I never said anything about famous... and I know that 1st hand because of the constant stories that I've been told about the racism, etc.
    And yes it does matter if you are learning from someone who learned it from someone before him and not some made up bs in the basement
     
  7. BigJavi973

    BigJavi973 Orange Belt

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    Yessir you are correct.... maybe we should implement a time frame etc... such as ... training face to face with that person for over a year or maybe two or more idk what do you think?
     
  8. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    Generally your told
     
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  9. Spinedoc

    Spinedoc Purple Belt

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    My direct teacher has had two primary teachers. The current one is first.

    O'Sensei (Morihei Ueshiba) >> Akira Tohei >> Cal Blanchard >> Bruce Piotroski >> ME

    O'Sensei (Morihei Ueshiba) >> Koichi Tohei >> Frank Doran >> Bill McGouirk >> Bruce Piotrowski >> ME
     
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  10. CB Jones

    CB Jones 2nd Black Belt

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    Korean Karate

    Atlee Chittim-->David Jordan-->Buster Cotten--> my son.

    Chittim studied under Korean instructors in Korea during the Korean War and sponsored Jhoon Rhee to come to America in 1956.
     
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  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Grandmaster

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    No, you just said, in the back of a laundromat. You didn't say, "made up".

    I believe a whole lot of Chinese immigrants got low paying jobs in places like laundromats and restaurants. Some of those immigrants were highly skilled Kung fu people, so the laundromat analogy might actually be reality. So I just wanted, as i said, to add some perspective.

    My sifu had a more open school back in the 1960s and 1970s. Since then, he has taught a very small number of students in his back yard and garage, including me. His name is only known in certain circles. The system he teaches is not widely known. Given that, if people don't understand the back story, they might assume he is a fraud. In truth, he is one of the very best, and is by far the best of the half dozen or so teachers that I have had.
     
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  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour Grandmaster

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    I'm not very concerned with lineage, except as a way of understanding where the ideas came from. It can also be a useful way to dig backwards and find some new ways to understand techniques and principles.

    My primary art is Nihon Goshin Aikido, which was founded by Morita Shodo in the 1940's. He had training in multiple arts, with the principle art being Daito-ryu Aiki-jujutsu. We don't know who his instructors were in other arts (reportedly Shotokan Karate, Kodokan Judo, and possibly some exposure to Ueshiba's Aikijujutsu (what it was called at the time), as well as some wrestling. Oral history (there are no written records we've ever been able to find) says his Daito-ryu instructor was Kitaro Yoshida. My lineage forks, so I'll try to clarify it.

    Morita Shodo -> Richard Bowe -> Steve Weber -> Gerry Seymour
    - also Steve Weber -> Joe Beckham -> Gerry Seymour
    - also Steve Weber -> John Wyndham -> Gerry Seymour

    I've left out a couple of Associate Instructors who were my primary instructors for a time, to keep things simpler. The convoluted forking follows a progression of who ran the school I attended. Steve Weber opened the school, and I started under him. He moved and passed the school to Joe Beckham, who later decided to focus on his larger school in the next city, so John Wyndham took over the school.
     
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  13. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Regarding the unknown guy in the back alley, lineage only matters if you want to document that you are learning a specific style, and it often helps you sell a product, as you can claim an association with someone else who may be well known or accomplished. For example, if someone earns a black belt from Rickson Gracie, there is an association that is close and credible. It's very likely that this person is a strong martial artist, even if he is not well known.

    For what it's worth, my lineage would be the following:

    Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie > George Gracie > Octavio de Almeida > Moises Muradi > Giva Santana > James Foster
     
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  14. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Grandmaster

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    I'll need to check my lineage chart, I don't remember the names prior to my sigung. I'm not very good with Chinese names.
     
  15. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    This might take me a month to do. Or at least get it right.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
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  16. BigJavi973

    BigJavi973 Orange Belt

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    take your time gentlemen!
     
  17. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge Purple Belt

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    Japanese are very different about this than Chinese. Traditionally Kung Fu was taught in the back of a laundry mat or in the basement of a restaurant after hours or on a rooftop. The place with the sign and the contracts and the viewing area is much more suspect to me.

    But, I get the point - it's good to know if you're training with some guy or getting something passed down with some Providence.

    My lineage tree is on my website, which can be accessed from my signature tag. I don't want to take it upon myself to post those names here because the surviving members of my lineage have not chosen to expose themselves here and I am obliged to respect that.
     
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  18. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Oh, sure, take the easy way. :)
    What about the other arts you've studied? Hmmm?
     
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  19. BigJavi973

    BigJavi973 Orange Belt

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    just read it... awesome stuff man!

    Regarding about the rooftops laundrys etc.....

    one main name as to the reason why: Gus Kaparos that green cloud kung fu guy
     
  20. CB Jones

    CB Jones 2nd Black Belt

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    Fake it til you make it. :cool:
     
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