Kotegaeshi with a difference

[Gerry Seymour]

The neck thing is a pretty desparate plan to rely on. It is a method certanly. But the reason boxers hit people in tye jaw is that is works really well. So you are banking on a less effective strike being more effective because I haven't trained to defend it as much.

To pull it off you need to be really slick at judo chopping the neck.

It worked for Captain Kirk.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you might get over the top through the guard and you are working on the theory that the boxer may not recognise the movement quick enough to counter it.

But you want to be mindful that your own jaw is probably being attacked at the same time. So if you strike like a goober. With no timing or head movement you will probably get popped and loose the exchange anyway.

Yeah, or around the side, but that's just the same as trying to get in a hook to the jaw, so far as the boxer's concerned. And his shoulder is probably up in the way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wrestlers have more than one speed. You have to understand it is an art that focuses on harmony and personal development. Not just running around snapping guys wrists in their 5s and 10s.

I mean what are these guys doing to have that many people upset with them at one time?

I mean if that guy did more wrestling he wouldn't have to worry about being barry badass on the street.

Hey, when we walk down the street in those dresses, people just gang up on us. It's our plight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't think so? If you search the planet for unicorns, find no unicorns, no tracks, no evidence of them filling any role in the food chain, no unicorn bones or fossils, would that not be strong evidence that they don't exist?

Sure, some mad scientist might have one under lock and key somewhere, or maybe there is a grande multifaceted conspiracy involving 62 national governments to keep their existence covered up.

But which is more likely?

We find new species all the time. We didn't used to have any evidence of them - for centuries - but they existed. Absence of evidence is never evidence of absence, but it is very good reason for skepticism. The more data piles up without the sought evidence being found, the less likely it is that said evidence exists, but that lack of evidence never rises to the level of being evidence of absence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's what I'm after. What does it look like? I've visited all of the aikido schools in driving distance of me, and none of them do actual sparring or even live drills.

I want to see this real stuff. Where can I find it?

The easiest place to find it is a Tomiki (Shotokan) Aikido dojo. As you see in their competitions, it doesn't look much like classical Aikido when the opponent knows the counters. it starts to look more like Judo. Every now and then, you'll see one of them pull off something that's distinctly different, because they caught their opponent in a big error, and got to use a full Aikido technique, aiki and all. But most of the techniques, if taught properly, have a non-aiki aspect, as well, and the most "useful" (outside the dojo) Aikido will make use of that aspect when the aiki aspect isn't available.

 

[Martial D]

We find new species all the time. We didn't used to have any evidence of them - for centuries - but they existed. Absence of evidence is never evidence of absence, but it is very good reason for skepticism. The more data piles up without the sought evidence being found, the less likely it is that said evidence exists, but that lack of evidence never rises to the level of being evidence of absence.

Well, I don't necessarily agree but let's go a step further. What happens when a lack of positive evidence for a thing or idea(forget the pretty little unicorns for now) is supplemented by a healthy amount of negative evidence against?

Would that be enough for you to accept?

 

[Martial D]

The easiest place to find it is a Tomiki (Shotokan) Aikido dojo. As you see in their competitions, it doesn't look much like classical Aikido when the opponent knows the counters. it starts to look more like Judo. Every now and then, you'll see one of them pull off something that's distinctly different, because they caught their opponent in a big error, and got to use a full Aikido technique, aiki and all. But most of the techniques, if taught properly, have a non-aiki aspect, as well, and the most "useful" (outside the dojo) Aikido will make use of that aspect when the aiki aspect isn't available.

Yes, I posted a video of the dildo attack(sorry man that what it looked like...flopping around too and fro...they need better props) earlier in the thread.

The two making the claims I am arguing against rejected that as the real deal.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I don't necessarily agree but let's go a step further. What happens when a lack of positive evidence for a thing or idea(forget the pretty little unicorns for now) is supplemented by a healthy amount of negative evidence against?

Would that be enough for you to accept?

Of course. That's providing counter evidence, rather than just missing evidence. So, the issue isn't that we can't find Aikido folks in MMA fights (we can find some things I'd consider Aikido, but even that is rare, and not from Aikido training, as far as I know). The issue is that we see too many examples of Aikido failing when not in a classical dojo situation. Mind you, even those are rare, which leaves us with frustratingly little actual evidence to work with. Even I can only provide mostly my experience, which is somewhat thin when we're talking about actual Aikido (the art) rather than just aiki (or the Aikido group of arts).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, I posted a video of the dildo attack(sorry man that what it looked like...flopping around too and fro...they need better props) earlier in the thread.

The two making the claims I am arguing against rejected that as the real deal.

Yeah, the dildo attacks (I'm using that as a formal term with all floppy-weapon attacks, now) are at least "real" to the point that they are with resistance. The guy stabbing is actually trying to get his point, and the guy defending is trying to get his. Same when they put the dildo down. it's "real" the same way any competition is.

To me, what you see in those competitions is what happens when well-trained aiki stylists (meaning they know how to work both with and without the aiki component) face each other or someone who has skill and control. You'd see more aiki against someone raging in a bar, if they have the skill to handle the incoming punches, but it still isn't going to look like a Seagal movie.

 

[Martial D]

Yeah, the dildo attacks (I'm using that as a formal term with all floppy-weapon attacks, now) are at least "real" to the point that they are with resistance. The guy stabbing is actually trying to get his point, and the guy defending is trying to get his. Same when they put the dildo down. it's "real" the same way any competition is.

To me, what you see in those competitions is what happens when well-trained aiki stylists (meaning they know how to work both with and without the aiki component) face each other or someone who has skill and control. You'd see more aiki against someone raging in a bar, if they have the skill to handle the incoming punches, but it still isn't going to look like a Seagal movie.

To be fair, that sort of reminded me of what it looks like when two regular WC guys put on the gloves.

If it boils down to judo without the throws, it would be good to also have the judo.

Just like the WC guy is going to benefit from some kickboxing.

I'm not sure if the proverbial blood transfusion is needed because of the system or the training in either instance. Maybe both.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To be fair, that sort of reminded me of what it looks like when two regular WC guys put on the gloves.

If it boils down to judo without the throws, it would be good to also have the judo.

Just like the WC guy is going to benefit from some kickboxing.

I'm not sure if the proverbial blood transfusion is needed because of the system or the training in either instance. Maybe both.

It should have the throws. That was my point. To get those (against someone who knows grappling, too), you have to have some muscle-on-muscle fighting, and aiki arts tend to avoid that. I think it's useful to explore it. In fact, I know of no quicker way to get some students to work on developing "ju" (from Judo) and "aiki" than to let them tire themselves out using a lot of muscle on someone who is less muscular but can still beat them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"ju" (from Judo) and "aiki"...

This is why I have asked many threads ago, when someone drags your clothes and running in circle, what will be the Judo "Ju", or the Aikido "Aiki" solution?

I assume both Judo "Ju" and Aikido "Aiki" want to yield, sticky, and follow. Unfortunately, that's not the correct solution. The correct solution is to interrupt your opponent's action and take the control back which is more aggressive than both the Judo "Ju" and the Aikido "Aiki" approaches.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is why I have asked many threads ago, when someone drags your clothes and running in circle, what will be the Judo "Ju", or the Aikido "Aiki" solution?

I assume both Judo "Ju" and Aikido "Aiki" want to yield, sticky, and follow. Unfortunately, that's not the correct solution. The correct solution is to interrupt your opponent's action and take the control back which is more aggressive than both the Judo "Ju" and the Aikido "Aiki" approaches.

Neither requires only yielding. In most cases (not all) Aikido would yield to gain time, then apply force to redirect. So, if someone pulls me (doesn't matter how he's pulling me, I'm talking about the overall concept), I want to redirect his pull. If I don't see it coming early enough, I'll need time, so I'll probably yield with the pull initially to get the position and structure I need to introduce a different direction. Judo would probably take a similar approach, often using both push and pull to change the direction.

 

[now disabled]

Yeah, the dildo attacks (I'm using that as a formal term with all floppy-weapon attacks, now) are at least "real" to the point that they are with resistance. The guy stabbing is actually trying to get his point, and the guy defending is trying to get his. Same when they put the dildo down. it's "real" the same way any competition is.

To me, what you see in those competitions is what happens when well-trained aiki stylists (meaning they know how to work both with and without the aiki component) face each other or someone who has skill and control. You'd see more aiki against someone raging in a bar, if they have the skill to handle the incoming punches, but it still isn't going to look like a Seagal movie.

that is true it is more difficult to apply Aiki when the other guy knows that to as both are going to be looking for that

 

[now disabled]

Yes, I posted a video of the dildo attack(sorry man that what it looked like...flopping around too and fro...they need better props) earlier in the thread.

The two making the claims I am arguing against rejected that as the real deal.

The resaon they don't use as you put it real props is they both know what they are doing and as it a comp someone one get hurt. There are rules in that comp as in all other comps

Maybe you should note that the Tomiki style of Aikido contains a heck of a lot more "judo" in it than other styles and there is a reason for that ...if you go look at who founded that style you will find out why. Even then there is a paradox there and I will leave you to work out why that is if you can find out why it contains more judo

 

[Ryback]

Anywhere.

I mean, it's supposed to be a way to nonviolently put people away right? It should be easy to show it working.

You misunderstand, you see? It's a way of controlling, neutralizing, immobilizing, throwing etc people who attack you without having violent feelings and without using violent methods. But the results on the attacker are usually very violent and destructive...
So, don't get confused. The of blending, harmonizing with the attacker instead of violently colliding with him doesn't mean that he remains unharmed if he is at the receiving end of an Aikido technique. On the contrary, most of the times he will be injured while the aikidoka keeps his calm state of mind...
Of course, according to the nature of the attack and your opponent's reaction to your technique, there is a possibility that you can neutralize someone without serious injury using Aikido, but that is not always the case...

 

[Ryback]

While it's true that competitive folks aren't drawn to classical Aikido (so there's little internal drive to compete), that doesn't answer for the failures in friendly bouts. Aikido has an issue, the way it is often taught. I don't think it's an issue inherent in Aikido, but something it picked up over the generations of instructors, in failing to recognize that some important aspects weren't being taught to most students.

You are right about that, it is unfortunately true for the majority of the Aikido people. But not for all of them. That's why I keep on saying that Aikido has the potential to be effective but it depends on the individual practitioner...

 

[Ryback]

Strength and resistance aren't the same thing. "With resistance" mostly means having your partner actually try to stop you, and perhaps counter with their own technique. Practicing for the purpose of countering (where the point is the uke becomes nage) is partway there, but not entirely. Moderate resistance would be me feeding the initial attack, then trying to stop you from throwing/locking me. If you can still throw/lock, you've succeeded. If not, I've succeeded.

Agree, I have already answered that, we practice that way but we don't call it resistance... I know that unfortunately many Aikido dojos don't do that...

 

[now disabled]

This is a serious question @Martial D (and don't get bent outta shape and all your being got at personally) would you recognize in a fight any Aiki ? ...or any of the techniques contained within Aikido (not being nasty) as you are basing everything on what you are seeing in the demo and dojo vids... if the opponent is a trained MA then you are very unlikely to see the flowing classical things you are basing all your comments on as that will not work at all. To complicated in part and require a heck of a lot of set up.

Think on this if you go for say a tech that require you to have full control of the arm elbow wrist etc etc etc (doesn't matter what really) and the opponent resists you relax somewhat and don't meet that resistance with a trial of strength (as in if you are stronger than your opponent -and yes I have been in situations when in normal everyday life I would and knew I was stronger and would be able to overpower the person that way but when the person was all wound up and the blood was up and the adrenaline flowing he did have extra in the locker so to speak- ) you redirect that use his resistance against him and flow into another tech then that is Aiki, you have blended with him not met force with force and used what he was doing against him,

Now again in fights would you be able to spot that as you think and have a very closed off mind towards Aikido, There is very little in Aikido that involves just pure strength as if it did then even in a dojo with a compliant partner a little guy would not be able to throw the big guys the way they can (and you will say oh the uke is flipping over on purpose helping nage and literally jumping and in public demos you are prob right up to a point) it is he is redirecting the force used against him (yes the turns and the pivots etc) to allow him to throw (if you really know what you are looking for then you can spot a mile of when that is happening and uke is not just flipping over - the ukes feet give that away - that said he as he knows what is coming will try to get into a position of least resistance for (a) to be a good uke and (b) cause he doesn't want to get hurt - again you can if you know what you are looking for tell if it the nage who is throwing or the uke that is flipping -that is all dojo classical stuff ) In a real situation it is unlikely you will see the big flow and the impressive throws and flip overs as those only happen in dojo set up and if both uk and nage know what they are doing.

Also and yes this a bit Hollywood but hopefully it will illustrate a point ... a guy comes semi head down running at you in say a bar while you standing there he gonna try in effect rugby tackle you ...now you are stationary and he has momentum thereby he has built up some form of "power and strength" yes you could meet that head on if you are wanting engage him and roll with him (that could actually be described as kinda Aiki depending how skilled you are and that I would say no Aikidoka necessarily will be, a JJ, Bjj guy may well be an Aikidoka does not want to go to ground as that is not his/her strength) however if you pivot move of his line redirect him (and redirect doesn't always mean different direction) and assist him head on into the wall or the bar or even the folks behind you then that is Aiki you have blended by moving and not met force with force and used his force against him ( also on the way past you can apply atemi) that leads me on to the randori vid lol that exercise is not only to do with putting folks on their behinds or slamming them or hammering them down it is to build up the Aiki as in the blending the moving the redirecting of force and also the looking for the openings if they are there and when they are there to apply any tech and that could be just to move out the way (yes simple but effective) or to redirect into one of the other dudes coming at you from the other side ... and there by as well as building up the Aiki side it is building up your spacial awareness and the total scene.

Yes to most the many running about like idiots, trying to grab etc the nage looks like to some as the palour tricks in vids (like you see Ueshiba do and Shioda do) that has nothing to do with them trying to look like super beings at all absolutely not lol all it is showing is if you know how to apply Aiki and blend and redirect then you can throw off many and not by pure strength ...also the demos you see with Ueshiba with a jo and folks holding on to it then he throws them ...that is not fighting tech lol that is again Aiki principles and allowing him to throw ...nothing to do with a real life situation just showing what is possibly if you apply Aiki and not ever intended as the look of the super human. Also the vid when Shioda made RFK's bodyguard look a dork ...all Shioda did was drop his centre use the position of strength he was in use the weakness of the body guard (he was in socks and pants on mats there by his purchase was not ideal he was bigger than shioda so to get the leverage he was looking for from pure strength he had to try and go low and that was his downfall Shioda dropped his centre and merely used what he was given to his advantage lol...no big secret mystery at all he blended with what he was given and achieved the result.

Aikido is and never was an Art that meets things directly head on and the peace love and harmony bit is rooted in oomoto but with slightly different ideas of what all that means than the normal westerner would take it as ...jee even I 35 years ago thought hmmm how can slamming a person into a mat show any of that or how can trying to break an elbow be close to that , but from the founders outlook and his philosophy it is lol, also do note that latterly he really did go deep into oomoto hence why his early deshi have a different take on things and even they in later life changed as Ueshiba kinda intended you can practice Aikido from 10 to 100 and still get Aikido and to take the ideas into everyday life , ok many do not want to do that or miss that bit or gloss over it but it there Aiki is not just about combat lol it is about way more ... and that is up to the student if he or she chooses to go the whole path or not.

Every person everyday uses Aiki at some point it is just called different names and it is assumed that Aiki is purely martial arts ...it isn't and never was lol just it is associated with them almost exclusively and especially in the west

 

[now disabled]

Also do bear in mind that Aikido is a philosophy and the philosophy has always held as that came from Ueshiba Morihei ,,,the Aikido that was really spread around the globe well that came from the influence of the second doshu and if you watch him and compare him to his father or the other deshi of his father then they are different. I heard an interview once with a well respected shihan and he let it slip that although Ueshiba Morihei's biography has been translated the biography of Ueshiba Kisshomaru hasn't been ... I have a friend that reads Japanese (he should he is Japanese lol) and he said to me that unlike his Father, Kisshomaru really glossed over the oomoto side and to a certain extent the martial side. Now yes the second Doshu knew oomoto and had to whatever degree studied same but he didn't exactly follow same in as much. Also imo his straying (if that the right word) from the martial side was more to do with how Japan was when he was Dojo-cho and then Doshu than much else, Imo he took the course that he did more out of being practical due to the image Japan had from it's war time "endeavours" as he wanted to spread Aikido and yes it was his business and without students there is no business and he had to keep the Hombu going so imo he did as he had to, He was a very different character to his father (I am only going on what I have been told by shihan that did study with both and what I have read and seen, Yes I did take a few classes by the second doshu and he was very very circular and the like very light on his feet and his movement was superb not forceful but graceful, like Tohei (although they seriously fell out because Tohei wanted to take Aikido down the Ki path and the Doshu and the other Hombu shihan didn't basicaly) in his early years.

Aikido is very very very political lol always has been always will be since Ueshiba Morihei passed as the shihan who split from the Aikikai would never have done so when he was alive with two major exceptions ...one that never caused a rift the other did (Shioda and Tomiki) the one that did cause the rift well Imo there was deep reasons for that and well I have my own views there. So getting a true picture on what Aikido was is not easy as I don't think any of the original deshi are still alive (I mean the pre war deshi ) maybe one but I do not know if he has now passed if he hasn't then he is very old. What we all see now is the Aikido of Kisshomaru exported and the teachings(writings ) of Ueshiba Morihei and they were latterly heavily influenced by oomoto. There is Iwama but even now that really does not exist as such really ...yes Saito Hitohiro still teaches but he is no longer affiliated with the Akikai so politics play a major role. Yes Saito Morihiro taught what was termed original Aikido but was it imo (and I studied there) it was and it wasn't as well just the times involved (I mean the actual period in time) To me Shioda was more like the original and it still is but just my opinion.
There have even been Shihan saying (the older ones that are mostly now gone ) that Aikido was not a commercial business nor should be taught that way it was a vocation, has that had an effect on the Aikikai ...possibly as they are commercial ... Also (unless it has chaged recently and I stand corrected ) the Aikikai do not teah weapons at the Hombu but as a paradox the Aikikai shihan teaching outside of the Hombu mostly do lol and some have even gone on to set up there own stye of Aiki ken and Aiki jo so again it not all as it seems.

It will remain to be seen where the current Doshu takes Aikido and after that where waka-sensei takes it and how the rise of the different Aikido organisations pursue Aikido , and if there will but really major splits and we will see the classical Aikido and the more direct Aikido really diverge, Time will tell there