Kotegaeshi with a difference

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by now disabled, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Pretty sure small joint manipulation only applies to fingers and toes. Gotta grab 3 or more!

    Wrists are fair game.
     
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  2. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Wrestlers have more than one speed. You have to understand it is an art that focuses on harmony and personal development. Not just running around snapping guys wrists in their 5s and 10s.



    I mean what are these guys doing to have that many people upset with them at one time?

    I mean if that guy did more wrestling he wouldn't have to worry about being barry badass on the street.
     
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  4. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    why has the chin to be in the air and how are you so certain yet again?
     
  5. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    it to do with Aiki lol and connections it not about fighting lol
     
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  6. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Two reasons.

    Because I actually do this stuff rather than make up fanfic

    Because the first thing a boxer is taught is to keep his chin tucked. That means no neck for your choppy choppy.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Here's my take, and this is based only on what I've been able to see and experience personally, so others may be able to provide better perspective. I think most of what you see in traditional Aikido practice is NOT meant to be application (at least, originally). They were movement drills, intended to exercise principles and methods of movement. In TMA, when doing that, often things are exaggerated, so that students don't shortcut too much (students typically don't make as big a movement as you want when you want big, nor as small a movement as you want when you want small). If we also go back to the assertion that it was mostly taught (early on) to folks who already had a fighting base, it makes even more sense. Take a good Judoka, and just work him only on the movement principles he doesn't have, or which are barely present in his Judo. Thus, the training is all highly compliant and over-emphasized aiki, because that was the point of training. If that's true, then it wasn't ever intended that training would necessarily look like application. Even when I find myself applying aiki (and feeling it fit perfectly) in a more "live" situation than classical drills, it doesn't look like Aikido (though some of our classical drills to bear some resemblance to Aikido's training).
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think the issue is expecting the aiki to stand alone. Everyone I know who has used anything from an aiki art in a real situation (meaning outside the training drills) has actually used more than just the aiki side. They were striking, maybe grappling from a clinch, etc., and an opening for aiki execution showed up, so they used it. To me, that's where the aiki stuff fits - it's not meant to stand alone, getting by entirely on flow, evasion, and waiting for something to happen. The few times I've seen something in a "street" video that I considered aiki, it was almost always (rare exceptions) in the middle of a mess. Nothing like it looks in classical dojo training.
     
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  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The rest of your points are good. This one isn't.
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    While it's true that competitive folks aren't drawn to classical Aikido (so there's little internal drive to compete), that doesn't answer for the failures in friendly bouts. Aikido has an issue, the way it is often taught. I don't think it's an issue inherent in Aikido, but something it picked up over the generations of instructors, in failing to recognize that some important aspects weren't being taught to most students.
     
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  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Strength and resistance aren't the same thing. "With resistance" mostly means having your partner actually try to stop you, and perhaps counter with their own technique. Practicing for the purpose of countering (where the point is the uke becomes nage) is partway there, but not entirely. Moderate resistance would be me feeding the initial attack, then trying to stop you from throwing/locking me. If you can still throw/lock, you've succeeded. If not, I've succeeded.
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, with some locks, there's just not room for fighting through it. You have to give it up as soon as they resist, or risk injuring. I've seen it happen with our 3rd Set Wrist (I don't know the more common name for it) in a class, and know of another instance with the same technique during LEO training. In one case, the uke simply didn't feel any pain so he resisted and nage kept going. In the other, a young LEO decided to show the technique wouldn't work if he resisted, and the trained (who related the story as a mea culpa) let his ego get in the way and kept going.

    Now, that's not to say those can't be practiced with resistance, but there's a safety issue that has to be taken into account. If I put one of those locks on and uke is resisting in a way that doesn't stop the technique from working, I just release. I know I had it, but won't hurt him to prove it. If he resists in a way that would stop it, I just change techniques (I know ways to get past some of this resistance, but it comes on too fast to have dependable control). So, if someone is resisting one of these techniques, what you'll see is some other technique. There's just not enough play in the joints from the critical point to safely push through resistance.

    Give me a shoulder, and it's another matter. There's plenty of room to work against resistance there. Same for most people's elbows, knees. Even true for some (most?) finger cranks. And for a couple of the wrist locks I can think of, where it's compression, rather than torsion. But there are those few...
     
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Most of Aikido can be safely done with anyone. Especially on mats.
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If I read the term properly (always a doubtful prospect with me and Japanese terms), kaeshi waza just means countering techniques or recovery techniques. That drill appears to be a progression drill, to walk through the recovery options from one end of a spectrum to the other. I'm not sure how effective that drill is - it seems better suited to simply demonstrating to students the progression.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    This.

    It's possible, if you get the aiki component in there, for kotegaeshi to turn into an actual throw. But I doubt it would happen often in "the street" or in sparring. More likely, it drives them to their knees (where they are in kneeing/kicking range), or back past their heels into a sit-down/fall-down (not a pretty throw - more of an off-balance). Mostly, it's useful because of the weapon takeaway you mention. I teach it as both throw and standing strip, and what to do when the throw doesn't throw.
     
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  16. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    You don't think so? If you search the planet for unicorns, find no unicorns, no tracks, no evidence of them filling any role in the food chain, no unicorn bones or fossils, would that not be strong evidence that they don't exist?

    Sure, some mad scientist might have one under lock and key somewhere, or maybe there is a grande multifaceted conspiracy involving 62 national governments to keep their existence covered up.

    But which is more likely?
     
  17. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    That's what I'm after. What does it look like? I've visited all of the aikido schools in driving distance of me, and none of them do actual sparring or even live drills.

    I want to see this real stuff. Where can I find it?
     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    In my opinion, done properly, the second hand stays in defense until structure starts to break down, or you are in a position where the second hand isn't a threat. That buys the time to spend on a grappling move. That approach leaves room for combining striking and grappling.

    In dojo practice, it's easy to lose sight of that second hand (on the defender) and go right to technique without accounting for the attacker's remaining weapons.
     
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  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    He seems to understand combinations, but not that the other guy can use them, too.
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Not worth it. I have enough trouble untying my own hakama. On a corpse? Forget about it.123
     
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