Kotegaeshi with a difference

Martial D

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Cant wristlock in MMA. You can in jits. Most do both.

And going street doesn't magically give you a free pass from having to know basic fighting fundimentals.
Pretty sure small joint manipulation only applies to fingers and toes. Gotta grab 3 or more!

Wrists are fair game.
 

drop bear

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I find it hard to believe you have never been slammed on your head by a wrestler. I sure have, and let me tell you...its usually pretty darn violent.

Now jitz on the other hand..if you just get to a good position like the back or mounted crucifix and just dont finish you can give the other guy time to calm down and then go for a beer later :)

Wrestlers have more than one speed. You have to understand it is an art that focuses on harmony and personal development. Not just running around snapping guys wrists in their 5s and 10s.


I mean what are these guys doing to have that many people upset with them at one time?

I mean if that guy did more wrestling he wouldn't have to worry about being barry badass on the street.
 
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Unless you have your chin in the air there is no neck target. If the point of hitting the neck is because the opponent is a BOXER you're definitely not getting any neck.


why has the chin to be in the air and how are you so certain yet again?
 
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Wrestlers have more than one speed. You have to understand it is an art that focuses on harmony and personal development. Not just running around snapping guys wrists in their 5s and 10s.


I mean what are these guys doing to have that many people upset with them at one time?

I mean if that guy did more wrestling he wouldn't have to worry about being barry badass on the street.

it to do with Aiki lol and connections it not about fighting lol
 

Martial D

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why has the chin to be in the air and how are you so certain yet again?

Two reasons.

Because I actually do this stuff rather than make up fanfic

Because the first thing a boxer is taught is to keep his chin tucked. That means no neck for your choppy choppy.
 

Gerry Seymour

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What does aikido that is 'actually effective' look like? I assume you mean effective for fighting? I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, but I've never seen anything that ''looks like' any of the many many cooperative demos I've seen in any sort of live sparring, fighting, or competition. Is it possible that it look so different in practice I just can't recognise it?

Surely that's more likely than an effective martial system practiced by millions NEVER being caught in action in a world where every single person carries a high res video camera in their pocket?
Here's my take, and this is based only on what I've been able to see and experience personally, so others may be able to provide better perspective. I think most of what you see in traditional Aikido practice is NOT meant to be application (at least, originally). They were movement drills, intended to exercise principles and methods of movement. In TMA, when doing that, often things are exaggerated, so that students don't shortcut too much (students typically don't make as big a movement as you want when you want big, nor as small a movement as you want when you want small). If we also go back to the assertion that it was mostly taught (early on) to folks who already had a fighting base, it makes even more sense. Take a good Judoka, and just work him only on the movement principles he doesn't have, or which are barely present in his Judo. Thus, the training is all highly compliant and over-emphasized aiki, because that was the point of training. If that's true, then it wasn't ever intended that training would necessarily look like application. Even when I find myself applying aiki (and feeling it fit perfectly) in a more "live" situation than classical drills, it doesn't look like Aikido (though some of our classical drills to bear some resemblance to Aikido's training).
 

Gerry Seymour

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I have spoken to Paul Cale about it. His issues kind of reflect MMA vs Aikido guys issues which seem to be consistent with any Aikido guy who can actually demonstratively make any martial art work.

Shibucho Paul Cale – Kudo Australia

I would have to see something work before I invest time and money in it.

Can you make aikido work? Can anybody do it on video and then explain it.

I mean there is no shortage of aikido video. These guys are not hiding out. It is just the lack of demonstrated with resistance that makes me not want to put the day in day out no Sundays.

And potentially get no result.
I think the issue is expecting the aiki to stand alone. Everyone I know who has used anything from an aiki art in a real situation (meaning outside the training drills) has actually used more than just the aiki side. They were striking, maybe grappling from a clinch, etc., and an opening for aiki execution showed up, so they used it. To me, that's where the aiki stuff fits - it's not meant to stand alone, getting by entirely on flow, evasion, and waiting for something to happen. The few times I've seen something in a "street" video that I considered aiki, it was almost always (rare exceptions) in the middle of a mess. Nothing like it looks in classical dojo training.
 

Gerry Seymour

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The effectiveness of a martial art has nothing to do with sports fighting or sparring, that's a game with rules and referees...
Most Aikidoka I know (myself included) would try to stay out of harms way by avoiding any conflict and when it ever happens, believe me, I won't stop to make sure that my cellphone's camera is recording in order to satisfy people on YouTube or any forum...
As a matter of fact, I wouldn't like any witnesses around...
While it's true that competitive folks aren't drawn to classical Aikido (so there's little internal drive to compete), that doesn't answer for the failures in friendly bouts. Aikido has an issue, the way it is often taught. I don't think it's an issue inherent in Aikido, but something it picked up over the generations of instructors, in failing to recognize that some important aspects weren't being taught to most students.
 

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What do you mean by resistance? Putting all of your strength in order to stop the aikidoka from applying a technique? That would be a huge mistake for two reasons.
Firstly because if the attacker (Uke) does that the technique is actually applied easier, I've tried it millions of times...
And secondly, because it is very dangerous to do such a thing, something will be dislocated, broken or worse.
If on the other hand, by resistance you mean relaxing in order to be able to re-attack or apply another technique as a counter technique, then that's fine and we practice that every day, although I wouldn't call it resistance (it's actually kaeshi waza).
The reason that we do not often see kaeshi waza in demos is probably because most Aikidoka want to demonstrate a set of clear techniques. Or at least that's my conclusion, I don't do public demos and I don't film myself because I don't think it accomplishes anything... It's not something bad, it's simply not my cup of tea...
Strength and resistance aren't the same thing. "With resistance" mostly means having your partner actually try to stop you, and perhaps counter with their own technique. Practicing for the purpose of countering (where the point is the uke becomes nage) is partway there, but not entirely. Moderate resistance would be me feeding the initial attack, then trying to stop you from throwing/locking me. If you can still throw/lock, you've succeeded. If not, I've succeeded.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I can punch a guy who is putting all his strength into trying to stop me and not be dangerous. I can throw a guy and not be dangerous. I can do chokes and neck cranks and arm bars and heel hooks and wrist locks.

But you can't do a wrist lock without them either collapsing on you ripping their arm off.

So basically you can't do anything that would provide any sort of empirical evidence.

And your own conclusions are not drawn from any sort of empirical evidence.

I can see what that guy from the Aikido vs video is on about.
Actually, with some locks, there's just not room for fighting through it. You have to give it up as soon as they resist, or risk injuring. I've seen it happen with our 3rd Set Wrist (I don't know the more common name for it) in a class, and know of another instance with the same technique during LEO training. In one case, the uke simply didn't feel any pain so he resisted and nage kept going. In the other, a young LEO decided to show the technique wouldn't work if he resisted, and the trained (who related the story as a mea culpa) let his ego get in the way and kept going.

Now, that's not to say those can't be practiced with resistance, but there's a safety issue that has to be taken into account. If I put one of those locks on and uke is resisting in a way that doesn't stop the technique from working, I just release. I know I had it, but won't hurt him to prove it. If he resists in a way that would stop it, I just change techniques (I know ways to get past some of this resistance, but it comes on too fast to have dependable control). So, if someone is resisting one of these techniques, what you'll see is some other technique. There's just not enough play in the joints from the critical point to safely push through resistance.

Give me a shoulder, and it's another matter. There's plenty of room to work against resistance there. Same for most people's elbows, knees. Even true for some (most?) finger cranks. And for a couple of the wrist locks I can think of, where it's compression, rather than torsion. But there are those few...
 

Gerry Seymour

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So I looked up kageshi waza. Is this accurate?
If I read the term properly (always a doubtful prospect with me and Japanese terms), kaeshi waza just means countering techniques or recovery techniques. That drill appears to be a progression drill, to walk through the recovery options from one end of a spectrum to the other. I'm not sure how effective that drill is - it seems better suited to simply demonstrating to students the progression.
 

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I have done kotegeshi in fights by the way. It cranks the arm but doesn't really get the throw. So i have probably hurt people with it. But not effectively advanced my position much. And not hurt them so they collapse.

When I did it in training people flipped over fine because they knew what was coming. Which is why I thought it should work.

I use it a lot for stripping weapons. Which was predominantly glasses. But have done the occasional knife. And once a cigarette packet by mistake.

I can do kotageshi in sparring if the other guy is terrible. But then I have more than one speed.
This.

It's possible, if you get the aiki component in there, for kotegaeshi to turn into an actual throw. But I doubt it would happen often in "the street" or in sparring. More likely, it drives them to their knees (where they are in kneeing/kicking range), or back past their heels into a sit-down/fall-down (not a pretty throw - more of an off-balance). Mostly, it's useful because of the weapon takeaway you mention. I teach it as both throw and standing strip, and what to do when the throw doesn't throw.
 

Martial D

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The rest of your points are good. This one isn't.
You don't think so? If you search the planet for unicorns, find no unicorns, no tracks, no evidence of them filling any role in the food chain, no unicorn bones or fossils, would that not be strong evidence that they don't exist?

Sure, some mad scientist might have one under lock and key somewhere, or maybe there is a grande multifaceted conspiracy involving 62 national governments to keep their existence covered up.

But which is more likely?
 

Martial D

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Here's my take, and this is based only on what I've been able to see and experience personally, so others may be able to provide better perspective. I think most of what you see in traditional Aikido practice is NOT meant to be application (at least, originally). They were movement drills, intended to exercise principles and methods of movement. In TMA, when doing that, often things are exaggerated, so that students don't shortcut too much (students typically don't make as big a movement as you want when you want big, nor as small a movement as you want when you want small). If we also go back to the assertion that it was mostly taught (early on) to folks who already had a fighting base, it makes even more sense. Take a good Judoka, and just work him only on the movement principles he doesn't have, or which are barely present in his Judo. Thus, the training is all highly compliant and over-emphasized aiki, because that was the point of training. If that's true, then it wasn't ever intended that training would necessarily look like application. Even when I find myself applying aiki (and feeling it fit perfectly) in a more "live" situation than classical drills, it doesn't look like Aikido (though some of our classical drills to bear some resemblance to Aikido's training).
That's what I'm after. What does it look like? I've visited all of the aikido schools in driving distance of me, and none of them do actual sparring or even live drills.

I want to see this real stuff. Where can I find it?
 

Gerry Seymour

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No. Just I would be going from low risk to high risk. I don't like to drop both of my hands in a striking exchange. Seems a bit face punchy.

Even grappling my hands would be high untill i am inside his range.
In my opinion, done properly, the second hand stays in defense until structure starts to break down, or you are in a position where the second hand isn't a threat. That buys the time to spend on a grappling move. That approach leaves room for combining striking and grappling.

In dojo practice, it's easy to lose sight of that second hand (on the defender) and go right to technique without accounting for the attacker's remaining weapons.
 

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