Kotegaeshi with a difference

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by now disabled, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    Ok first I am well aware that it still dojo set up and it not a boxer (DB I know what ya gonna say lol) however when I was looking around you tube I came across this, It is still Kotegaeshi just not the flowery one and there is an entry for the retracted punch ( DB it not a boxer lol) anyway may explain there is more than one way to apply the principle.






     
  2. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Not to be 'that guy' but as this post seems to imply combat application, could you give an example of this working against a resisting opponent?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  3. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    What you are missing totally and completely is the principles and unless you get that you will never get Aikido no matter what is posted you will not actually get it lol ....I am not being sarky but honestly you are missing it totally
     
  4. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Wow. Calm down.

    I'll take that as a no then.
     
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  5. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    I'm not upset lol

    you ask the same everytime bro and unless you got a good long while to sit and learn then you will miss the principles it not the application only but the principle

    I will post a trad kotegaeshi and you will maybe see what I mean



     
  6. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Well, you keep framing it as combat applicable, so yes the next logical step would be to talk application. I'm not sure why you keep acting offended every time you take this direction and get the logical outcome.

    If you would frame it as choreography, and show a video of choreography, that would be a different discussion. But if you frame it as combat and show choreography, that's a different discussion again.
     
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  7. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    I am not offended at all

    it is combat orientated lol as I said you are missing the principles that are there and unless as I said you are willing to see that then your not going to get any Aikido at all lol

    it like when you had a go at Shioda lol well I would have liked to see you do to him what you claim you can do and yup I have seen folks try and they ended up on the floor as they have with Chida and most definitely did with the power house that was Chiba and they used the same principles lol

    I am not offended at all you want to see blood and busted up humans lying around and that ain't gonna happen lol ...Aikido is not a sport so you are not going to see the same as you see in the cage
     
  8. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When you

    - know that your opponent is going to punch you with his right hand at a certain height, to catch his wrist is possible.
    - don't know whether your opponent is going to punch you or kick you, to catch his wrist is almost impossible.

    Your technique should not depend on that wrist grabbing.
     
  9. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    It doesn't lol he is not trapping the wrist necessarily of the hand that is punching it is the principles you are missing whatever hand is used left extended or retracted or the one that isn't punching the principles are there move offline enter use what he gives you and disrupt his centre the principles are the same in each one and really it was to show a different application of the same tech

    so are you saying when you train you never know what attack is coming you learn techs that way ?
     
  10. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    another style of Aikido with same principles


    and yet another classical kotegaeshi from another different style but same principles lol


     
  11. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    What principle? An abstract principle has to map into concrete technique. That's not a good technique to represent that principle.

    For example, when your opponent punches at you, you use your leading hand to redirect his punch arm so your back hand can catch his wrist, IMO that's more realistic technique that your principle can map into.

    In all my training, I always attack my opponent first. I don't wait for my opponent to attack me. So I don't have "what attack is coming" issue.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2018
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  12. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    and what part of you second paragraph is not happening lol

    so you teach by attacking you never learn tech? first ?
     
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  13. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Don't know what you are trying to discuss here.

    Since the leg is longer than the arm, if my opponent attacks me first, a kick at his belly should be able to interrupt his attack. In other words, I like to use one common technique to deal with all attacks.
     
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  14. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    go and watch the vids again as you will see hand deflection and all the rest you have just said so it is not abstract at all


    What I asked is how you learn your techniques and skills ?
     
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  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    1. Develop from partner drill.
    2. Test from sparring.
    3. Polish from solo drill.
    4. Enhance from equipment training.

    In all my "partner drill" training, I always attack first. Here is an example.

     
  16. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    ok but how do you learn the technique to start with ? surely you have to practice and know what is coming o you can apply the tech and your teacher can then correct mistakes ?

    saying you always attack first and always kick to the belly is ok but what do you learn from that?
     
  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Most people like to start from the solo form. I like to start from partner drill.

    1st - You learn from partner drill. Your opponent punch at you, you kick his belly.
    2nd - You test it in sparring.
    3rd - You kick in the thin air.
    4th - You kick on heavy bag.



     
  18. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    You keep leading with some variation of 'im not upset' and then fly off the handle for three paragraphs. I don't really see the need for that.

    Look, if you are discussing any style used for combat or fighting, you should be able to point to an example of that, or there isn't really anything to discuss. Choreography just doesn't count as you can do literally anything if your partner cooperates. (See- pro wrestling).
     
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  19. now disabled

    now disabled Master Black Belt

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    I am not flying off at all lol

    you slagged of shioda and all i said was you were wrong

    it is not worth arguing about as you will never see the point as you do not want to

    You have a very strong opinion that what you do is the only way

    you quote a sword saint etc yet do you study the sword ?

    You wish to see broken bodies etc before you will believe anything and that is ok you say you have done this and that with Aikidoka and basically you let them etc.

    How can you slang off anything with the same again and again and again if you have never even studied or made the effort to ...that to me is narrow minded.

    and I am not going off on one at all
     
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  20. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm pretty skeptical of likelihood of getting a solid control of the wrist on either the punching or non-punching hand the way he's showing. I'd also like either a close up explanation or an in-person feel for what he's doing to break the opponent's structure to allow the kotegaeshi. Even if you can grab the wrist of the non-punching hand, it's in solid structure and good position. Unless you can compromise that structure somehow, the odds of just being able to grab and twist for the kotegaeshi effectively against any sort of competent opponent are essentially nil.123
     
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