Knee circles in warm-up

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by pdg, Sep 25, 2019.

  1. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Good or bad and why?
     
  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Going to say bad. Because you could be doing anything else more useful.
     
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  3. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    Depends what your talking about,

    If you mean standing with your feet flat on the floor, moving your knees, but also gyrating your upper body, to activate/ warm the majority of muscles in your body, then yes, 30 seconds or so of that is a good investment in time.

    If your just moving your knees whilst keeping your upper body mostly still, then you've still got 600 muscles to go, going to take sever hours to warm up if you insist in doing them 4 at a time
     
  4. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Master of Arts

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    Do you mean these ones? Starts at about 30s:



    We always did them in the dojo, I reckon they're a good mobility exercise, not only for the knees but ankles as well.

    Another we did were holding a knee straight up, lower leg dangling, and rotating lower leg in circles (which was really more hip internal/external rotation).
     
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  5. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Good. I like to do a loosening motion before and after stretching. Hip rotation, knee rotation, etc. are good after doing splits or hip stretches.
     
  6. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Yes, like that.

    I don't like them, I don't personally think they work with how the knee is designed to operate and take loads.

    Hip rotation is fine, it's not a unidirectional joint...

    One of the sub instructors has started doing them in the led warmups - I just do something else instead.
     
  7. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I mean, I've done this at both TKD schools I've been to and nobody's ever had an issue with it. It's more your ankles and hips rotating than your knees. In fact, a lot of the older students make sure we do these, because otherwise they feel stiff after stretching.

    I'd personally be more concerned with someone ignoring the commands of the person who is leading. That right there is a breakdown in your dojang. If you don't like what the leader is doing, you need to bring it up to your Master and see what your Master says. If you are just going to disobey the person who is leading the class and do your own thing, you've completely broken the authority of the dojang.

    The exception to this is if you have a specific condition that makes it so you can't do whatever it is you are being told to do. But not just because you don't like it.
     
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  8. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I've been given the authority to break the authority ;)

    Plus, the actual instructors know that I'm not going to shirk something just because I don't fancy it - anything I don't do has an actual reason behind it and knee rotations are one of those things.


    I was just curious as to whether anyone else thought they were a bad idea...
     
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  9. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    that has the ring if someone who has been brained washed into unthinking compliance with instruction of course any person who think a movement possibly injurious should feel completely at liberty to ignore any instructions to do so.
     
  10. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Your actual reason is that you don't like them, and seem to have an irrational fear of them. I've seen thousands of people do this exercise and not once ever seen an injury from it. I've had this exercise given to me by my first instructor (who was a nurse), and by my first master (who was a special forces instructor) and by my current master (also a former special forces instructor). At my current school, we have had 2 professional dancers, several doctors and nurses, and not a single one of them has ever criticized this warm-up.

    I don't think your "actual reason" is an actual reason.
     
  11. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I've seen enough to suggest to me that they're bad enough to not warrant the risk of doing them.

    Like neck circles (rolling your head around in a circle) that physical therapists used to recommend, but don't now.
     
  12. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    What have you seen to suggest it's bad? Have you seen an injury resulting from this stretch? Have you had a medical professional tell you they're bad?

    So far, you've provided no evidence to support your claim, except for a hunch.
     
  13. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I've seen a couple of knee dislocations from being pushed sideways, so why put your knee in that position intentionally?

    And a friend of mine is a sports therapist who has removed them from her list of stuff - but she's not on YouTube so that doesn't count as evidence.
     
  14. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Oh, and a few people in class (all older) have complained of pain during and after, but said it's something they'll have to work through...
     
  15. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Because your knee isn't being pushed when you do this. The hinge joint doesn't appear to be moving laterally. Your ankles and hips are turning, your knees are merely bending and rotating with it. It's similar to how you would chamber a roundhouse kick or twist kick.

    Even if the joint is moving laterally, it's moving within the allowed parameters, by the fact that it isn't breaking. Every movement you can make, if you go too far it will break something. Every stretch you do, if taken too far, will result in a muscle tear or ligament damage.

    The older people in my class complain if we don't do this stretch.

    Like I said, I've done this stretching motion for my 10 year career in TKD. I've done it in every class, for 20 classes a week, for 5 of those years. I have never once heard anyone complain about it. I've heard plenty complain if it isn't done.
     
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  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I like to loose up my joints from bottom and up.

    Toes joint -> ankle joint -> knee joint -> hip joint -> waist joint -> finger joint -> shoulder joint -> elbow joint -> wrist joint -> neck joint

    To use my toes to grab on the ground is the 1st loosening up that I do.

    Someone said that to twist the neck joint can be a bad idea. After this many years, I'm still doing it. I strongly believe that the more that I exercise my joints, the more lubrication that my joint will generate.

    I have done this all my life. If this exercise can be bad, I should have experienced it by now. Today, I still run 3 miles 3 - 4 times weekly. I don't have any joint issue at all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
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  17. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Just because you've done it for years means nothing tbh.

    I smoked for over 25 years, doesn't mean it wasn't doing damage I'm yet to find out about - and 50 years ago doctors were doing adverts for (not against) cigarettes.

    Also, I consider it a different load profile and position to a kick chamber.

    10 years or so ago, people would have had the same reaction about head/neck rotations, "I've done it for years" etc.
     
  18. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    The range of motion in the exercise isn't enough to cause damage, or to cause a bad load on your knee. Not any more than any of the stances we use. There's also a difference between a dynamic motion and a static motion. If you hold it at the 3:00 or 9:00 position it would be a lot worse.

    I'm with @Kung Fu Wang . I'm still doing neck rotations. Sometimes if I don't do them, I get cramps.
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    There is difference between you twist your joint in fast speed vs. you twist your joint in slow speed.
     
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  20. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    If he is above them in rank and thinks it's dangerous, he should stop them immediately, not just ignore them. This way, the rest of the class is protected from injury.
    IF he is below them in rank, he should talk to the instructor after class.

    In either case, it's something that should be brought up. It sounds like this is a recurring thing he's not doing because he thinks it's dangerous, but is fine to let the instructor lead everyone else through it.
     

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