Knee circles in warm-up

[skribs]

Terrible argument; @pdg's point about cigarettes is that at the time no one knew they were bad, even worse some thought they were good for you. Same can be said about some stretches I have done/do.
@jobo is also making a good point; don't, under no circumstance don't be pressured into doing something you should not do, i.e. harmful stretches. Sometimes hard to see this happening in the moment but when we see or feel it we need to be smart about what we do next.
I think you are getting close to making a good point that possibly @pdg is doing the stretch wrong and needs to use his ankles and hips more for the circular motions. Just a hunch.

If you read my post #27, I addressed this. If you don't feel comfortable, then don't do it, but then bring it up after class. Don't let it linger as something you just ignore every time it comes up.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Unless they have a valid medical reason, the only reason to not participate in something they are told to is laziness or arrogance. Either they don't want to do it, they don't see the point of something the leader has determined important, or they think they know better than whoever is in charge.

Now, sometimes you don't know if they have made a deal with master or head coach or not. So you can't always judge. But if I was leading a stretch and saw someone doing something else, I would assume they were either not paying attention, or thought they knew better than me. (It depends, sometimes I can tell by the look on their face what they're doing, like if they have a cramp). With the adults, I'll check and verify if there's a reason they're not following me.

Which is fine for you to verify, but the point is an another student im going to assume theres a legitimate reason they're not doing it, and not pay any more attention to it. So there's no illusion of authority being broken here.

Of course with kids that might be different ("why doesn't he have to do pushups???"), but then pdg is not a kid as far as i know

 

[dvcochran]

I spent 12 years stretching, rotating, and doing calisthenics for a half hour before karate class. Now, as an old (er) guy, I spend no more than 5 minutes warming up with a few slow stretches and shaking loose. I'm good to go after that. I think most stretching is overrated, unless you're a TKD guy needing to head kick an NBA player. I do admit to personally not doing head kicks. Doing the actual moves, easy and relaxed, a few times does the trick for me.

Maybe I'm unique, or my muscle memory or experience allows me to jump right into action with a very short warm-up, I'm not sure. I do know I've injured myself stretching more than I have doing an actual technique. So I would advise not doing a lot of joint rotations or stretches if it causes pain. Strengthening exercises are fine up to the point they allow good power to be delivered and give you sufficient stamina. Beyond that, learning, understanding and perfecting technique deserves as much of your valuable and limited time as possible.

Everyone's physicality is different. Try various ways of warming up and do what seems to best prepare you for action.

The main key, for me at least, is truly "Warming" up. I have learned it is vitally important for me to get my muscles warm and the blood pumping. I have nothing to back this up with but I feel this goes a long way in not pulling a muscle or injuring oneself during stretching. And yes, much like those little gymnast who are incredibly flexible, it takes extra time and stretching for the average to person to perform head level kicks with any effectiveness.

 

[dvcochran]

Good if you are gentle with the movement. Bad if you try to treat it like a stretch. The purpose of it is to thicken the ligaments and tendons in the knee and not loosen the joints. Buy giving a tiny bit of stretch the ligaments will become stronger. But it's really important that you do just a little. I usually do 5 in one direction and 5 in another. This is not a fast circular movement. It's a gentle movement.

If you do this exercise remember to be gentle and keep in mind that it's not a stretch. If I get time I'll do a video of what I mean by gentle and how small the range of motion is. I tried to find a video on youtube of someone doing it correctly but I couldn't find one. I probably have to look for something other than knee circles


A lot of people treat it like a stretch and that's where they screw up. Your knees are only made to move in one direction with room for exception of slight twisting, turning. This small space for movement is what keeps our knees from snapping, when they don't bend correctly. For example, sitting like this shows the knee moving with that twisting motion.
View attachment 22486

Here's another example

Man, I miss being able to do that bottom stretch.

 

[pdg]

Unless they have a valid medical reason, the only reason to not participate in something they are told to is laziness or arrogance. Either they don't want to do it, they don't see the point of something the leader has determined important, or they think they know better than whoever is in charge.

You can know better than the person in charge without being arrogant.

Saying "pfft, you don't know what you're on about" is arrogant.

But then again, being in charge in a civilian setting and expecting everyone to instantly defer to what you say without hint of question is also arrogant.

 

[pdg]

There is a lot of stuff in martial arts that is "mildly dangerous" You can stand in a horse stance incorrectly and wreck your knees just as easily.

I'm going to state I used what I consider a bad choice of wording.

Rather than dangerous, I'm going to say detrimental.

So, mildly detrimental.

In that, it's very easy to get it wrong enough to create issues. As is your horse stance example, but I'd put that as slightly harder to get wrong.

The possible (and questionable) benefits of the particular exercise aren't nearly enough (for me) to consider spending time on it when I could be doing something far more immediately beneficial.


With this, and the neck rotations, doing them in a specific fashion under the direct guidance of a trained professional is an entirely different situation to doing them in a group under the instruction of "some guy".

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm going to state I used what I consider a bad choice of wording.

Rather than dangerous, I'm going to say detrimental.

So, mildly detrimental.

In that, it's very easy to get it wrong enough to create issues. As is your horse stance example, but I'd put that as slightly harder to get wrong.

The possible (and questionable) benefits of the particular exercise aren't nearly enough (for me) to consider spending time on it when I could be doing something far more immediately beneficial.


With this, and the neck rotations, doing them in a specific fashion under the direct guidance of a trained professional is an entirely different situation to doing them in a group under the instruction of "some guy".

I agree.. There was a time I couldn't do the neck exercises because it felt like a bone was grinding in my neck. I had this pain for more than 20 years. I told my teacher the issue I was having and he gave me a set of different exercises to do everyday. They were gentle exercises that I had to do while relaxed. Those exercises fixed my neck issue. An instructor that wasn't knowledgeable would have forced me to do more of the same neck exercises that was causing the pain.

I know there are a lot of instructors, therapists who think some of these exercises are for Stretching. The way I learned is that some are maintenance exercises used to relax muscles, strengthen ligaments and tendons, and promote joint mobility. If these exercises are done with any other focus then it's like you stated. "very easy to get wrong." Especially when there's no instant pain or discomfort to let you know that it you are doing it wrong. Most people find out later on life that they were doing it wrong because their joints are wrecked.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm going to state I used what I consider a bad choice of wording.

Rather than dangerous, I'm going to say detrimental.

So, mildly detrimental.

In that, it's very easy to get it wrong enough to create issues. As is your horse stance example, but I'd put that as slightly harder to get wrong.

The possible (and questionable) benefits of the particular exercise aren't nearly enough (for me) to consider spending time on it when I could be doing something far more immediately beneficial.


With this, and the neck rotations, doing them in a specific fashion under the direct guidance of a trained professional is an entirely different situation to doing them in a group under the instruction of "some guy".

This is about the most instruction that people get when doing knee circles. There's no information on what not to do, No information on the purpose and how it benefits the joints. No real guidance. Like don't do this if your knees are already bad. Or maybe, make the circles smaller "if you feel....."

 

[dvcochran]

You can know better than the person in charge without being arrogant.

Saying "pfft, you don't know what you're on about" is arrogant.

But then again, being in charge in a civilian setting and expecting everyone to instantly defer to what you say without hint of question is also arrogant.

Agree. People are simply too informed today. "Do as I say" without a qualifier shows a position of weakness. Our GM understands that wielding a "military" leadership does not bode well with everyone. It doesn't even work well with all kids now a days. Being a quality leader in a Dojo/Dojang setting is something that comes with time unless you are a natural. Some people never get it.

 

[skribs]

You can know better than the person in charge without being arrogant.

Saying "pfft, you don't know what you're on about" is arrogant.

But then again, being in charge in a civilian setting and expecting everyone to instantly defer to what you say without hint of question is also arrogant.

If you ask me, we give the lay person too much credit on their opinions in this day and age. There's a reason courts go to qualified individuals for an expert opinion.

 

[jobo]

If you ask me, we give the lay person too much credit on their opinions in this day and age. There's a reason courts go to qualified individuals for an expert opinion.

you think it would be a better world if the opinions of adults on what's best for their own bodies was ignored and ma experts had to be obeyed?

my experience is lots of ma experts are using century old understanding of human performance training, the term expert is then very much up for challenge. in the information age, anyone who wants to be moderately inform on the latest understanding can be, the role of experts has never been less needed, except of course to write the infomation

 

[skribs]

you think it would be a better world if the opinions of adults on what's best for their own bodies was ignored and ma experts had to be obeyed?

my experience is lots of ma experts are using century old understanding of human performance training, the term expert is then very much up for challenge. in the information age, anyone who wants to be moderately inform on the latest understanding can be, the role of experts has never been less needed, except of course to write the infomation

I've seen way too many people (myself included) who think they know better than my Master, and make huge mistakes because of it. They do things my Master recommends not to do and get hurt. They try things before they're ready and get hurt. As an instructor, there are things I did when I first started, that went against the way my Master does things, and I made kids cry and quit.

Yes, I've learned through experience to trust in the greater experience of those more advanced than myself. If I have a disagreement, I will take the discussion behind closed doors.

All I'm saying is if you think there's something totally wrong and the sky is falling, but your Master is okay with it, maybe there's a reason he's okay with it.

 

[pdg]

If you ask me, we give the lay person too much credit on their opinions in this day and age. There's a reason courts go to qualified individuals for an expert opinion.

And apart from a belt and certificate in martial arts, what automatically makes an instructor qualified in biomechanics?

 

[jobo]

I've seen way too many people (myself included) who think they know better than my Master, and make huge mistakes because of it. They do things my Master recommends not to do and get hurt. They try things before they're ready and get hurt. As an instructor, there are things I did when I first started, that went against the way my Master does things, and I made kids cry and quit.

Yes, I've learned through experience to trust in the greater experience of those more advanced than myself. If I have a disagreement, I will take the discussion behind closed doors.

All I'm saying is if you think there's something totally wrong and the sky is falling, but your Master is okay with it, maybe there's a reason he's okay with it.

well maybe he does t have a clue or maybe he does ?, you have a serious deference to represented authority issue, what's called white coat syndrome.

why do you refere to him as " master" he not yours or anyone else master, just some guy running a ma class

 

[pdg]

I've seen way too many people (myself included) who think they know better than my Master, and make huge mistakes because of it. They do things my Master recommends not to do and get hurt. They try things before they're ready and get hurt. As an instructor, there are things I did when I first started, that went against the way my Master does things, and I made kids cry and quit.

Yes, I've learned through experience to trust in the greater experience of those more advanced than myself. If I have a disagreement, I will take the discussion behind closed doors.

All I'm saying is if you think there's something totally wrong and the sky is falling, but your Master is okay with it, maybe there's a reason he's okay with it.

Another difference here is that you're essentially a kid.

How on earth did you make the younger ones cry and quit?

 

[skribs]

And apart from a belt and certificate in martial arts, what automatically makes an instructor qualified in biomechanics?

Decades of experience seeing what happens to people when they do various things.

I ask again - can you provide me with one example of someone being injured as a result of this stretch? Can you provide me with one article that shows someone having been injured? A video, even a tweet saying "I hurt myself doing knee rotations."

Or is this something that someone said "this might be dangerous" with no data to back it up?

 

[skribs]

Another difference here is that you're essentially a kid.

How on earth did you make the younger ones cry and quit?

Being too strict at the lower levels. Trying to build good martial habits and good discipline, but ended up making them feel worthless and like they can't do anything right. Also, I was 25, and they were 8-10. To say I'm just a kid, in comparison to the 8-10 year olds, is quite frankly disingenuous.

 

[pdg]

Decades of experience seeing what happens to people when they do various things.

I ask again - can you provide me with one example of someone being injured as a result of this stretch? Can you provide me with one article that shows someone having been injured? A video, even a tweet saying "I hurt myself doing knee rotations."

Or is this something that someone said "this might be dangerous" with no data to back it up?

Earlier in the thread you asked if I'd been told about potential problems, and I informed you from where.

Apparently, that's not good enough and now you've moved the goalposts again.

I'm starting to think that you and @jobo have swapped accounts for this thread.

 

[skribs]

Earlier in the thread you asked if I'd been told about potential problems, and I informed you from where.

Apparently, that's not good enough and now you've moved the goalposts again.

I'm starting to think that you and @jobo have swapped accounts for this thread.

I'm sorry, how is asking for one example of this "moving the goalposts"? As far as I'm aware, this has never resulted in injury. As far as I can tell, you're also not aware of any injuries this has caused. Why is the sky falling on this particular exercise, if there's no documented cases of it injuring people?

Edit to add: you also didn't produce any material for me to read or review. Just told me what you've heard word-of-mouth. That's not much I can go by, either.

 

[pdg]

Also, I was 25, and they were 8-10. To say I'm just a kid, in comparison to the 8-10 year olds, is quite frankly disingenuous

I wasn't comparing you to them.

I was comparing you to me.