Knee circles in warm-up

[jobo]

If he is above them in rank and thinks it's dangerous, he should stop them immediately, not just ignore them. This way, the rest of the class is protected from injury.
IF he is below them in rank, he should talk to the instructor after class.

In either case, it's something that should be brought up. It sounds like this is a recurring thing he's not doing because he thinks it's dangerous, but is fine to let the instructor lead everyone else through it.

wwhats rank got to do with it ? if he thinks it dangerous for others he should speak up immediately no matter what the rank is of the people involved, if it's just dangerous to himself he should ignore the insruction, theres no point speaking up later if your already injured

ma instructors are fallible human beings, who should be challenged and or ignored if what they are instructing is incorrect, especially if dangerously so.

I tell my taxi driver if I think he is going the wrong way or likely to injure me, why would another person being paid to do a task for me be any different .

 

[skribs]

wwhats rank got to do with it ? if he thinks it dangerous for others he should speak up immediately no matter what the rank is of the people involved, if it's just dangerous to himself he should ignore the insruction, theres no point speaking up later if your already injured

ma instructors are fallible human beings, who should be challenged and or ignored if what they are instructing is incorrect, especially if dangerously so.

I tell my taxi driver if I think he is going the wrong way or likely to injure me, why would another person being paid to do a task for me be any different .

Because it's not immediately dangerous. There's a difference between getting someone to quit smoking and getting someone to not let themselves on fire.

If the instructor is doing a warm-up that you think is going to cause damage over time, then it happening once isn't a big issue. If the warmup is to take the smallest person and have the biggest person jump off the roof and land on them, then yeah stop it immediately.

 

[jobo]

Because it's not immediately dangerous. There's a difference between getting someone to quit smoking and getting someone to not let themselves on fire.

If the instructor is doing a warm-up that you think is going to cause damage over time, then it happening once isn't a big issue. If the warmup is to take the smallest person and have the biggest person jump off the roof and land on them, then yeah stop it immediately.

what's not immediately dangerous and to who.

you cant possibly say that the ops knee issue will not be made worse immediately there must be some issue or he wouldn't have asked the question

 

[skribs]

what's not immediately dangerous and to who.

you cant possibly say that the ops knee issue will not be made worse immediately there must be some issue or he wouldn't have asked the question

He hasn't said he has a knee issue. He's said he thinks this dangerous, but I've seen 0 reports from him regarding actual injuries caused by this. Just that one person who is a PT doesn't use this exercise anymore.

Do you think this is a dangerous warm-up?

I'm saying if something is immediately dangerous, as in - if you use this warmup, there is a significant chance that someone will tear an ACL - then yes, stop it immediately. If it's a warmup you think will be dangerous if you do it every week for 10 years, then waiting until the end of class is not going to be a game-changer in the long run.

OP obviously doesn't think it's dangerous enough to immediately tell the instructor to stop. He's obviously waited several classes and is asking online about it. I think if he is still concerned and goes to class, he can wait until after class to talk to the junior instructor, or else talk to the Master or senior instructor and share his concerns.

I also think the concerns are out in left field, because I don't see anything dangerous about this warmup.

 

[jobo]

He hasn't said he has a knee issue. He's said he thinks this dangerous, but I've seen 0 reports from him regarding actual injuries caused by this. Just that one person who is a PT doesn't use this exercise anymore.

Do you think this is a dangerous warm-up?

I'm saying if something is immediately dangerous, as in - if you use this warmup, there is a significant chance that someone will tear an ACL - then yes, stop it immediately. If it's a warmup you think will be dangerous if you do it every week for 10 years, then waiting until the end of class is not going to be a game-changer in the long run.

OP obviously doesn't think it's dangerous enough to immediately tell the instructor to stop. He's obviously waited several classes and is asking online about it. I think if he is still concerned and goes to class, he can wait until after class to talk to the junior instructor, or else talk to the Master or senior instructor and share his concerns.

I also think the concerns are out in left field, because I don't see anything dangerous about this warmup.

but the same question if you think its harmful to you, why would you follow an instruction to do something you think is harmful. you said this breaks group discipline, that is not a good reason to follow instructions to do something you consider to be harmful

have you got another reason .

 

[pdg]

It's an exercise I consider mildly dangerous to me in the medium term and to younger people in the longer term.

The younger ones doing it a few times is very unlikely to do anything detrimental to them, me doing it a few times is unlikely to have an immediate effect - but it's cumulative.

So, I don't do it.

Also, I informed them that my daughter won't be doing it either.

Both of which are fine.

If it looks to be moving toward a regular activity, then I'll raise my concerns more, but as it is I consider it a personal choice thing.

Anyone, regardless of rank, is always welcome to raise concerns and/or excuse themselves from certain portions of the activity for any reason they deem necessary - unless of course it gets to the point where they might as well not be there...

This however is a thing that lasts for less than 30 seconds, and the people who don't wish to do that all substitute a different exercise - in my case I'll do one leg squats (which being a straight load is safer and also more effective anyway).

 

[skribs]

but the same question if you think its harmful to you, why would you follow an instruction to do something you think is harmful. you said this breaks group discipline, that is not a good reason to follow instructions to do something you consider to be harmful

have you got another reason .

My logic has kind of been spread around a couple of posts. Let me re-summarize and hope it makes sense. I was hoping a lot of this was common sense, and I wouldn't need to write it out like a programming code and define every variable and object.

1. If something is immediately dangerous (high likelihood to cause injury every time it's used), then stop the instructor immediately, regardless of rank.
2. If something is not immediately dangerous, but can cause problems over time, and you have the authority over the person suggesting it, stop it immediately.
3. If something is not immediately dangerous, but can cause problems over time, and you do not have the authority over the person, then you should talk to them about it after class.

If you have hit point 3, then whether or not you ignore it that one time, is immaterial. Either you ignored it once, and then dealt with the situation, and now it's no longer an issue. Either the instructor will stop the behavior (nothing left to ignore), or you will come to an understanding that you will not participate in the exercise (and now you have an agreement on what is happening, instead of simply ignoring the instruction). In either case, the issue has been hashed out, and there is no "I just ignore the person leading class."

On the other hand, if none of these options are chosen, then what is happening is that OP is allowing the instructor to use (what he thinks are) harmful training techniques.

This is why I outlined things the way I did.

 

[skribs]

It's an exercise I consider mildly dangerous to me in the medium term and to younger people in the longer term.

The younger ones doing it a few times is very unlikely to do anything detrimental to them, me doing it a few times is unlikely to have an immediate effect - but it's cumulative.

So, I don't do it.

Also, I informed them that my daughter won't be doing it either.

Both of which are fine.

If it looks to be moving toward a regular activity, then I'll raise my concerns more, but as it is I consider it a personal choice thing.

Anyone, regardless of rank, is always welcome to raise concerns and/or excuse themselves from certain portions of the activity for any reason they deem necessary - unless of course it gets to the point where they might as well not be there...

This however is a thing that lasts for less than 30 seconds, and the people who don't wish to do that all substitute a different exercise - in my case I'll do one leg squats (which being a straight load is safer and also more effective anyway).

Can you point to one time in which this exercise has caused an injury? An article, a video, a post, or anything? I've never once heard of this being dangerous until today.

At my school, if someone chooses to ignore the leader out of a matter of opinion, that is considered disrespectful to that leader, and by extension the Master. The Master has a lot more experience than anyone else, and in my experience when he and I disagree, he's usually right. (And this is from someone who likes to be right). That's not to say everyone does everything. He does take into account people's conditions, such as people with back problems not doing jumping kicks, and people with an injury or illness sitting out of sparring.

But they do all of this with permission of the leader, not by ignoring the leader. And if their reason for avoiding the exercise is purely based on a difference of opinion, that is telling the Master he is wrong, which if you do, you better make damn sure you're right.

 

[dvcochran]

I've seen enough to suggest to me that they're bad enough to not warrant the risk of doing them.

Like neck circles (rolling your head around in a circle) that physical therapists used to recommend, but don't now.

Both are good examples of exercises that some people are going to have to work up to. I personally like both of them but know that I do not have very good range of motion on either any more so I do them very slowly and usually out of count with whoever is leading class. We all have to listen to our body.
When we are young and pliable it is good to work to increase our range of motion. The key is to keep doing it as we get older, something that often does not happen. We take a break from working out then go back to class and think we can pick up where we left off. Damn, that hurts the next day. Next several days for me.
Most can get back at least close to the range of motion they once had but it takes time and patience.

If a person is really going to interrupt class because they are doing something out of sync with the leader they should simply go to the back of the room.
Any instructor worth their salt is going to know if a person is repeatedly slacking off and pull them aside. ​

 

[Martial D]

I mean, I've done this at both TKD schools I've been to and nobody's ever had an issue with it. It's more your ankles and hips rotating than your knees. In fact, a lot of the older students make sure we do these, because otherwise they feel stiff after stretching.

I'd personally be more concerned with someone ignoring the commands of the person who is leading. That right there is a breakdown in your dojang. If you don't like what the leader is doing, you need to bring it up to your Master and see what your Master says. If you are just going to disobey the person who is leading the class and do your own thing, you've completely broken the authority of the dojang.

The exception to this is if you have a specific condition that makes it so you can't do whatever it is you are being told to do. But not just because you don't like it.

That is legit cult mentality. If you have any concerns about safety or injury due to a given activity, you ABSOLUTELY should opt out.

 

[jobo]

My logic has kind of been spread around a couple of posts. Let me re-summarize and hope it makes sense. I was hoping a lot of this was common sense, and I wouldn't need to write it out like a programming code and define every variable and object.

1. If something is immediately dangerous (high likelihood to cause injury every time it's used), then stop the instructor immediately, regardless of rank.
2. If something is not immediately dangerous, but can cause problems over time, and you have the authority over the person suggesting it, stop it immediately.
3. If something is not immediately dangerous, but can cause problems over time, and you do not have the authority over the person, then you should talk to them about it after class.

If you have hit point 3, then whether or not you ignore it that one time, is immaterial. Either you ignored it once, and then dealt with the situation, and now it's no longer an issue. Either the instructor will stop the behavior (nothing left to ignore), or you will come to an understanding that you will not participate in the exercise (and now you have an agreement on what is happening, instead of simply ignoring the instruction). In either case, the issue has been hashed out, and there is no "I just ignore the person leading class."

On the other hand, if none of these options are chosen, then what is happening is that OP is allowing the instructor to use (what he thinks are) harmful training techniques.

This is why I outlined things the way I did.

but your still orequired having authority, I have authority over my own body, that is all the authority that's required

 

[dvcochran]

I like to loose up my joints from bottom and up.

Toes joint -> ankle joint -> knee joint -> hip joint -> waist joint -> finger joint -> shoulder joint -> elbow joint -> wrist joint -> neck joint

To use my toes to grab on the ground is the 1st loosening up that I do.

Someone said that to twist the neck joint can be a bad idea. After this many years, I'm still doing it. I strongly believe that the more that I exercise my joints, the more lubrication that my joint will generate.

I have done this all my life. If this exercise can be bad, I should have experienced it by now. Today, I still run 3 miles 3 - 4 times weekly. I don't have any joint issue at all.

I cannot speak to the lubrication benefits but I am certain it keep the itis brothers (arthritis, bursitis, tendonitis, etc...)at bay.

 

[dvcochran]

Because it's not immediately dangerous. There's a difference between getting someone to quit smoking and getting someone to not let themselves on fire.

If the instructor is doing a warm-up that you think is going to cause damage over time, then it happening once isn't a big issue. If the warmup is to take the smallest person and have the biggest person jump off the roof and land on them, then yeah stop it immediately.

Terrible argument; @pdg's point about cigarettes is that at the time no one knew they were bad, even worse some thought they were good for you. Same can be said about some stretches I have done/do.
@jobo is also making a good point; don't, under no circumstance don't be pressured into doing something you should not do, i.e. harmful stretches. Sometimes hard to see this happening in the moment but when we see or feel it we need to be smart about what we do next.
I think you are getting close to making a good point that possibly @pdg is doing the stretch wrong and needs to use his ankles and hips more for the circular motions. Just a hunch.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I spent 12 years stretching, rotating, and doing calisthenics for a half hour before karate class. Now, as an old (er) guy, I spend no more than 5 minutes warming up with a few slow stretches and shaking loose. I'm good to go after that. I think most stretching is overrated, unless you're a TKD guy needing to head kick an NBA player. I do admit to personally not doing head kicks. Doing the actual moves, easy and relaxed, a few times does the trick for me.

Maybe I'm unique, or my muscle memory or experience allows me to jump right into action with a very short warm-up, I'm not sure. I do know I've injured myself stretching more than I have doing an actual technique. So I would advise not doing a lot of joint rotations or stretches if it causes pain. Strengthening exercises are fine up to the point they allow good power to be delivered and give you sufficient stamina. Beyond that, learning, understanding and perfecting technique deserves as much of your valuable and limited time as possible.

Everyone's physicality is different. Try various ways of warming up and do what seems to best prepare you for action.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Good or bad and why?

Good if you are gentle with the movement. Bad if you try to treat it like a stretch. The purpose of it is to thicken the ligaments and tendons in the knee and not loosen the joints. Buy giving a tiny bit of stretch the ligaments will become stronger. But it's really important that you do just a little. I usually do 5 in one direction and 5 in another. This is not a fast circular movement. It's a gentle movement.

If you do this exercise remember to be gentle and keep in mind that it's not a stretch. If I get time I'll do a video of what I mean by gentle and how small the range of motion is. I tried to find a video on youtube of someone doing it correctly but I couldn't find one. I probably have to look for something other than knee circles


A lot of people treat it like a stretch and that's where they screw up. Your knees are only made to move in one direction with room for exception of slight twisting, turning. This small space for movement is what keeps our knees from snapping, when they don't bend correctly. For example, sitting like this shows the knee moving with that twisting motion.

Here's another example

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm still doing neck rotations.

I do these at work when I need to loosen up. I also use it as a measure of stress. For me stress builds up in my shoulders and neck. I don't get all crazy with it. It's not a rushed exercise for me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's an exercise I consider mildly dangerous to me in the medium term and to younger people in the longer term.

There is a lot of stuff in martial arts that is "mildly dangerous" You can stand in a horse stance incorrectly and wreck your knees just as easily.

I think knee circles should be optional for students. Not every system needs it, not every system will benefit from it. Depending on the system that you are training in, you would be at a greater risk for hip injury and permanently damaging the hip, than damaging your knees from an exercise done correctly.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I mean, I've done this at both TKD schools I've been to and nobody's ever had an issue with it. It's more your ankles and hips rotating than your knees. In fact, a lot of the older students make sure we do these, because otherwise they feel stiff after stretching.

I'd personally be more concerned with someone ignoring the commands of the person who is leading. That right there is a breakdown in your dojang. If you don't like what the leader is doing, you need to bring it up to your Master and see what your Master says. If you are just going to disobey the person who is leading the class and do your own thing, you've completely broken the authority of the dojang.

The exception to this is if you have a specific condition that makes it so you can't do whatever it is you are being told to do. But not just because you don't like it.

There are plenty of times I've seen people not participate in some portion of an activity at the dojo. Most of the time it's a warm-up or conditioning thing, but not always. I've never considered it them breaking the authority of the dojo-I assume that they have some sort of reason for not participating in the activity (sometimes they share that sometimes they don't), and I assume that they talked to the instructor about it. But in reality, even if they don't have a reason, and they don't discuss it with the instructor, I have no way of knowing that, so no authority is really broken.

I also don't really see a need for any sort of authority, in the sense of "I say this, you do that". Obviously we have an instructor, and we listen to the instructor, so the training is cohesive plus he's the one with the experience, but I wouldn't say he has authority over anyone. It's the same as, if I have a tech issue, I listen to what the IT guy says to do, but he doesn't have "authority" over me by my doing that.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I do these at work when I need to loosen up. I also use it as a measure of stress. For me stress builds up in my shoulders and neck. I don't get all crazy with it. It's not a rushed exercise for me.

I'm still actually told by my spine doctor to do them. And last time I went to physical therapy it was still recommended. I do them slowly, and in a bit of a different way then most people do them (I follow the instructions I was given by my doc on them, which is just a different order really), and when I go slow and allow it to roll, I still find that it helps.

 

[skribs]

There are plenty of times I've seen people not participate in some portion of an activity at the dojo. Most of the time it's a warm-up or conditioning thing, but not always. I've never considered it them breaking the authority of the dojo-I assume that they have some sort of reason for not participating in the activity (sometimes they share that sometimes they don't), and I assume that they talked to the instructor about it. But in reality, even if they don't have a reason, and they don't discuss it with the instructor, I have no way of knowing that, so no authority is really broken.

I also don't really see a need for any sort of authority, in the sense of "I say this, you do that". Obviously we have an instructor, and we listen to the instructor, so the training is cohesive plus he's the one with the experience, but I wouldn't say he has authority over anyone. It's the same as, if I have a tech issue, I listen to what the IT guy says to do, but he doesn't have "authority" over me by my doing that.

Unless they have a valid medical reason, the only reason to not participate in something they are told to is laziness or arrogance. Either they don't want to do it, they don't see the point of something the leader has determined important, or they think they know better than whoever is in charge.

Now, sometimes you don't know if they have made a deal with master or head coach or not. So you can't always judge. But if I was leading a stretch and saw someone doing something else, I would assume they were either not paying attention, or thought they knew better than me. (It depends, sometimes I can tell by the look on their face what they're doing, like if they have a cramp). With the adults, I'll check and verify if there's a reason they're not following me.