Kickboxing vs Taekwondo

[Tez3]

Several of my students have trained Muay Thai in Germany and they say the training is the same as in the UK, Muay Thai kick boxing with elbows, sweeps, clinches etc. the instructors are often Thai as well which is something that attracted them in the first place.

 

[Zero]

Here we have the late Andy Hug (3 time world champ Muay Thai), after he has been punched "AGAIN" in the face in a match against a Muay Thai kickboxer.

Kyokushin Karate rules fighting goes bare knuckle (no gloves whatsoever) because punching is forbidden to the face. Of course, the Muay Thai guy was disadvantaged because he's not used to those rules (notice how he repeatedly punches Andy Hug in the face, it's reflex).

But Andy is used to both Kyokushin and Muay Thai rules because he was also a three times world champion under Muay Thai rules, however, He constantly leaves his face open, because of his years of training in Kyokushin.


View attachment 19422


here is a link to the fight.

Hi Texan, sorry to jump in on this when the thread has progressed a bit but I just wanted to make a point and pull you up on a comment. Yes, the late great Andy Hug did leave his guard down in this fight (and of course his kyokoshin tournaments) but that was solely because of the particular rules for this fight. His kyokoshin in itself was not the reason for him "constantly leaving his face open" and keeping his guard low. He quickly transitioned into K1 where there are of course face punches and quickly became a K1 legend amongst legends...he won the K1 Grand Prix after all and has legendary status in K1 also.

 

[Zero]

Here we have the late Andy Hug (3 time world champ Muay Thai), after he has been punched "AGAIN" in the face in a match against a Muay Thai kickboxer.
here is a link to the fight.

Thanks, I enjoyed watching that fight and hadn't viewed it for a while. The MT fighter equiped himself well, and I know he was not used to the rules, but all in all I viewed Andy as the superior fighter, at least in that confrontation.

 

[TSDTexan]

Hi Texan, sorry to jump in on this when the thread has progressed a bit but I just wanted to make a point and pull you up on a comment. Yes, the late great Andy Hug did leave his guard down in this fight (and of course his kyokoshin tournaments) but that was solely because of the particular rules for this fight. His kyokoshin in itself was not the reason for him "constantly leaving his face open" and keeping his guard low. He quickly transitioned into K1 where there are of course face punches and quickly became a K1 legend amongst legends...he won the K1 Grand Prix after all and has legendary status in K1 also.

Well, I wasn't diss'n him. I love Hug. A lot.

 

[Zero]

Well, I wasn't diss'n him. I love Hug. A lot.

I know you were, my man, that was clear! : ) I love him too and his too early departure was a massive blow; he was and is an inspiration and I have worked hard on many techniques including the axe-kick due to his example.

Peace and respect!

 

[TSDTexan]

I know you were, my man, that was clear! : ) I love him too and his too early departure was a massive blow; he was and is an inspiration and I have worked hard on many techniques including the axe-kick due to his example.

Peace and respect!

The point was... MT fighter punches face, even though his brain says no punch face, his body has been trained "punch face"

OTOH, My dear Hug, didn't train to punch face, and other then accidentally doing so, He didn't.

However, he seemed irritated at being hit in the face, repeatedly.

He seems to keep guard at mid-body which seems reasonable against a leg fighter.

He isn't the only karateka who seems to get hit in the face by MT boxers or other stylists.

Pro western boxers keep the head / face well guarded to ward off bell ringing and KOs.

"elbows in and down" they say.

Of course too many body blows will end you too.

The short of it is that you fight the way you train.

 

[Transk53]

The short of it is that you fight the way you train.

Or you train the way you fight. Sorry my ears where bleeding the more I read. Simplistic as it sounds and put

 

[TSDTexan]

Or you train the way you fight. Sorry my ears where bleeding the more I read. Simplistic as it sounds and put

“ You can only fight the way you practice” -Miyamoto Musashi

 

[Zero]

The point was... MT fighter punches face, even though his brain says no punch face, his body has been trained "punch face"

OTOH, My dear Hug, didn't train to punch face, and other then accidentally doing so, He didn't.

However, he seemed irritated at being hit in the face, repeatedly.

He seems to keep guard at mid-body which seems reasonable against a leg fighter.

He isn't the only karateka who seems to get hit in the face by MT boxers or other stylists.

Pro western boxers keep the head / face well guarded to ward off bell ringing and KOs.

"elbows in and down" they say.

Of course too many body blows will end you too.

The short of it is that you fight the way you train.

Yes agreed but an old dog can actually learn new tricks and many karateka have gone on to own K1 and take numerous belts in UFC. This shows you can definitely transition - as you say, you simply need to alter your specific training or modify the techniques/tools you have in your arsenal. I have fought in kyokoshin, open, kickboxing and muay thai tournaments. That said my goju club always trained and spars with punches to head.

 

[Zero]

We may have a communication issue due to the language then. In English, "kickboxing" is the generic term used to describe any combative sport/martial arts training method which includes both kicking and punching with boxing gloves on. As such, it would encompass everything from the PKA to K1, as well as Muay Thai, Savate, Lethwei, (parts of) Bando, (parts of) Jun Fan Gung fu, etc. Bill Wallace and Rob Kaman were both kickboxers, but came from very different training backgrounds and competed under different rules.

I think there may primarily be a communication thing going on here. But that said, I kind of have to agree with old JohnyEnglish on this to a degree and I understand where he is coming from.

Yes, kickboxing is a generic term and can encompass many different styles and rule sets. And clearly MT is a form of kickboxing (among other things, they kick and they box!). But when I trained and fought in New Zealand, it was well understood that there was "kickboxing" and there was "Muay Thai". Kickboxing was understood to mean a style that did not train or use elbow in competition but it did still focus a lot on clinch work. Muay Thai used the elbow and were permitted to do so in tournament. There was an acknowledged divide and difference and there were many schools called "Kickboxing" and the rules for tournaments were pretty much identical.

What I am trying to say is that in some places/countries people in MA will instinctively know what "Kickboxing" is and what to expect when going to a club or entering a tournament (although always check the rules!) and they will see Muay Thai as different.

To be honest I would be surprised if that is not the case in most places and perhaps people are being a bit semantic...or maybe you (and others) are genuinely saying that if a mate where you live said "I'm off to the kickboxing club tonight", you would be confused or not sure if they meant Muay Thai or savate or something else?

Sure you could say, "hey is that a PKA kickboxing club or something else?" But if a guy is doing Muay Thai he's going to say, "hey, I'm off to Muay Thai tonight (because "kickboxers" are too scaredy-cat to use elbows)"

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

I think there may primarily be a communication thing going on here. But that said, I kind of have to agree with old JohnyEnglish on this to a degree and I understand where he is coming from.

Yes, kickboxing is a generic term and can encompass many different styles and rule sets. And clearly MT is a form of kickboxing (among other things, they kick and they box!). But when I trained and fought in New Zealand, it was well understood that there was "kickboxing" and there was "Muay Thai". Kickboxing was understood to mean a style that did not train or use elbow in competition but it did still focus a lot on clinch work. Muay Thai used the elbow and were permitted to do so in tournament. There was an acknowledged divide and difference and there were many schools called "Kickboxing" and the rules for tournaments were pretty much identical.

What I am trying to say is that in some places/countries people in MA will instinctively know what "Kickboxing" is and what to expect when going to a club or entering a tournament (although always check the rules!) and they will see Muay Thai as different.

To be honest I would be surprised if that is not the case in most places and perhaps people are being a bit semantic...or maybe you (and others) are genuinely saying that if a mate where you live said "I'm off to the kickboxing club tonight", you would be confused or not sure if they meant Muay Thai or savate or something else?

Sure you could say, "hey is that a PKA kickboxing club or something else?" But if a guy is doing Muay Thai he's going to say, "hey, I'm off to Muay Thai tonight (because "kickboxers" are too scaredy-cat to use elbows)"

Wow, actually the first person that understands what I am repatedly saying over and over again.

 

[TSDTexan]

the OP started with a line of questioning Kickboxing vs Taekwondo for the purposes of self defense.

I simply want to know what is better for self-defense. I am not flaming at all, I am new to this forum and came here to discuss things like this.
I did kickboxing long ago, but since both martial arts work with legs and hands, but kickboxing seems a bit more aggressive, I asked myself, what would bring me further in a real situation ?

Do we really need to know all the various forms of KB to help the OP determine what best meets his proclaimed needs?

Whether it be Kickboxing with elbows or Kickboxing without elbows. They are both competitive fighting sports.

When we get to the point of discussing merits of one versus the other... its about as meaningful as arguing McDonald's Hamburgers, vs Wendy's Hamburgers vs BurgerKing's Hamburgers vs Some Local outfit.

If all this is, for him, talk with no doing and no training... it is as meaningful as talking about who has the best burgers when you have no money to buy any.

On this thread, I vote for the OP to consider "Less Talking, More Kicking" instead of sitting around deliberating and pontificating.

 

[Hanzou]

Muay Thai kickboxing is better for self defense than TKD.

 

[Zero]

Muay Thai kickboxing is better for self defense than TKD.

I am glad someone brought informed reason back into this thread again.

I am only surprised you forgot the qualification that bjj is of course better the Muay Thai.

 

[Hanzou]

I am glad someone brought informed reason back into this thread again.

I am only surprised you forgot the qualification that bjj is of course better the Muay Thai.

Muay Thai is actually a lovely compliment to Bjj.

In terms of MT vs TKD, I simply have to give the edge to MT. MT schools tend to churn out better fighters than TKD schools do. Additionally, MT teaches you how to use more of your body as a weapon.

 

[Zero]

Muay Thai is actually a lovely compliment to Bjj.

In terms of MT vs TKD, I simply have to give the edge to MT. MT schools tend to churn out better fighters than TKD schools do. Additionally, MT teaches you how to use more of your body as a weapon.

Isn't that simply like saying [any striking art] is a lovely compliment to [bjj/grappling].
Or if you are specifically meaning MT and the way it can work with and transition into bjj moves, why would you say this fits better into the bjj package and style rather than another striking style? Can you please illuminate?

If this was really to have some thought put into it, there may well be other striking styles with stances, guard positions and strike delivery which transition better into bjj than MT.

Why not just be a rounded fighter: punch, kick, takedown/shoot, submit?

 

[Zero]

Isn't that simply like saying [any striking art] is a lovely compliment to [bjj/grappling].
Or if you are specifically meaning MT and the way it can work with and transition into bjj moves, why would you say this fits better into the bjj package and style rather than another striking style? Can you please illuminate?

If this was really to have some thought put into it, there may well be other striking styles with stances, guard positions and strike delivery which transition better into bjj than MT.

Why not just be a rounded fighter: punch, kick, takedown/shoot, submit?

 

[Zero]

hey, look, I'm quoting myself now, don't know WTF happened there!! : )

 

[TSDTexan]

Muay Thai kickboxing is better for self defense than TKD.

In general, I would agree with you.
However... that depends on what is being taught under the name TKD. There is several differant animals running around with the TKD name on it.

What was taught to US Airforce Policemen, and US Army Soldiers, and their Korean counterparts that was tested in the Korean war, and Vietnam war under the names Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo is a different critter, than what Scoccermom Susie Homemaker's 15 year old boy takes at the mall on Wednesdays and Saturdays to win regional trophies in point tournaments.

Here is an example of Mall TKD, an instructor of TKD with 9 years experience vs a 1 year grappler of experience in BJJ.

 

[Hanzou]

Isn't that simply like saying [any striking art] is a lovely compliment to [bjj/grappling].
Or if you are specifically meaning MT and the way it can work with and transition into bjj moves, why would you say this fits better into the bjj package and style rather than another striking style? Can you please illuminate?

If this was really to have some thought put into it, there may well be other striking styles with stances, guard positions and strike delivery which transition better into bjj than MT.

Why not just be a rounded fighter: punch, kick, takedown/shoot, submit?

Because the MT clinching system works great with the Bjj takedown system. Boxing's clinch is pretty good too, but MT incorporates elbows, knees, and takedowns from their clinch.