Kenpo and Aikijutsu

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - General' started by JMulford, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    For something to be misleading, it must mislead people. If people don't understand the "correct" usage, they can't be mislead by the "incorrect" usage.

    I put those in quotes, because what we're talking about is a designation by the Japanese government. Words' meaning comes from usage, not commandment. The best example I can give is that many MA schools put "karate" on their signs because it communicates to the general public, though what they teach may not be (strictly speaking) karate. To some, both that usage and the "incorrect" jutsu are like putting an incorrect brand on a car - calling it a "Ford", when it's not. But those aren't actually brands, but descriptors. To me, I see nothing inappropriate in the usage, so long as they are not making false claims to students. You and I will know their usage isn't technically correct, but it's correctly descriptive to their target audience.

    To me, the issue is of small importance. It's like when CRT monitors were labeled by their "size class". Monitors were typically labeled by their diagonal viewable area. Some were labeled '15" class', but were actually 15.1" or even 14.9". That was a typical usage, and didn't confuse users. In the details, the exact size was given, so there was no deceit.
     
  2. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Brown Belt

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    We can agree to disagree...I see it as just because the end user does not distinguish, does not make the practice right.

     
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  3. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Well Aikijutsu and Aikijujutsu and Jujutsu are 3 different levels in Daito ryu and 3 distinct characteristics. If I do Taijiquan and explore the concept of "Aiki" it does not make Taijiquan Aikijujutsu. Most of what is Aikijutsu is karate mixed with Aikido, or perhaps an off shoot of an offshoot from Daito ryu. Is there other Koryu jujutsu that have the term Aiki in their art I believe so but finding another legit jujutsu school that is using it besides Daito ryu is rare.
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    If we come from a Kitty perspective, we have to be more strict. Most martial artists don't take a kitty view. If the thing is consistent with jujutsu, and has an wiki focus, aikijujutsu (or, equally, aikijutsu) is properly descriptive.
     
  5. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Brown Belt

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    What about before Daito Ryu? Where did that come from? Do we really know what jujutsu really means?

     
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  6. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    Is that autocorrect for something like "koryu" or is it some new usage of "kitty" that I haven't encountered before?
     
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  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    [​IMG]
     
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  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes, that was "koryu". I entirely missed the autocorrect. I like the idea of a kitty view.
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Does that come in black, DB?
     
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  10. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    So... you're saying I am martially-schizophrenic. That does explain things....
     
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  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Let's make it sound cook and suggest we all wear masks.

    Like Batman.
     
  12. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    OK, you be Batman. I'll be Daredevil. I like red.
     
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Damnit! That took my two favorite - do I have to be Aquaman now?
     
  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Some people have way too much time on their hands.
     
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  16. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    takeda is accepted as the founder or preserver if you want to believe it as a historical art linked to the aizu and courts and all that. Well translating into English we only get an idea that is pretty much agreed upon.
     
  17. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Brown Belt

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    Nice, but not what I said...what was before? Where did it come from?

     
  18. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    There are a few arts that have aiki and aiki-like principles at some of their higher levels that I'm aware of, but none that use the term "aikijutsu" or similar.

    (I love kitties, but to aid in clarity, I've adjusted your original quote, Gerry....)

    If we come from a Koryu perspective? Is there another?

    Before you think I'm being facetious, the term originates in Daito Ryu... it is a Daito Ryu-specific term, in fact. Modern arts that use the term tend to have no actual connection to the reality of it's usage, instead making up their own reasons, typically based in their own misunderstandings of the terms involved... as a result, personally, I will tend to dismiss them as irrelevant to the conversation. Of course, what you'd need to define is what is actually "consistent with jujutsu", and what an "aiki focus" actually means... as, to my mind, these "modern Aikijujutsu" systems do not have what would pass.

    In other words, it's not misused from a linguistic perspective (inaccurate, sure, but that's a bit different), it's misused from a pedagogical and historical perspective.

    There is no known usage of Aikijujutsu or Aikijutsu prior to Takeda Sokaku's use of the term in the late 1800's/early 1900's. Where did it come from? Takeda Sokaku. Do we know what Jujutsu really means? Yes. Do you?

    The context of your comments wasn't particularly easy to parse... and Oaktree's comments were completely correct. And answered your questions, such as they are, based on the way you wrote them.
     
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  19. MI_martialist

    MI_martialist Brown Belt

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    I was not talking about the usage of "Aiki" anything...but rather the training...there had to have been training before that...this may have been the focus or the specialized curriculum instructed, but again, what was instructed before that?

    Yes I do know what actual historical meanings of jujutsu are...

    There is no known usage of Aikijujutsu or Aikijutsu prior to Takeda Sokaku's use of the term in the late 1800's/early 1900's. Where did it come from? Takeda Sokaku. Do we know what Jujutsu really means? Yes. Do you?


    Yes, if we fixate on a style or school and not core training.

    The context of your comments wasn't particularly easy to parse... and Oaktree's comments were completely correct. And answered your questions, such as they are, based on the way you wrote them.[/QUOTE]
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I agree that the concept "aiki" - whether used with that name or not - is almost certainly not something that originated with Takeda's Daito-ryu. I suppose it's possible that's the first place it got such heavy emphasis (doubtful, but possible), but surely that wasn't a new concept, even then.
     

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