Is American Kenpo Fake?

[Rusty B]

There are various videos online showing inmates in prison gathering and practicing various techniques of coming off a wall during a patdown search or various disarming techniques.

This actually IS a martial art. It's called jailhouse rock.

 

[Rusty B]

@isshinryuronin , did you agree with what @punisher73 just said? You know that what he said is as equally citical as my comments on what you said, right?

Looks like you're issue with me is personal.

 

[isshinryuronin]

@isshinryuronin , did you agree with what @punisher73 just said? You know that what he said is as equally citical as my comments on what you said, right?

Looks like you're issue with me is personal.

Yes, I agree with him that even jailed criminals can informally learn MA (this was clearly one of my points).
And I agree with him that original karate was designed for civil defense, not warfare.
I also agree that de-escalation techniques are good.

Clearly in these modern times, people have a greater access to information (including MA) than before. What I don't agree with is how you can state my posting is personal against you? Your attitude is baseless and leads me to believe you think way to much of yourself.

However, I did take your advise and did some "thinking on who I think the idiot is." Didn't have to think too deep, though, to know it isn't me.

 

[Rusty B]

Yes, I agree with him that even jailed criminals can informally learn MA (this was clearly one of my points).
And I agree with him that original karate was designed for civil defense, not warfare.
I also agree that de-escalation techniques are good.

Clearly in these modern times, people have a greater access to information (including MA) than before. What I don't agree with is how you can state my posting is personal against you? Your attitude is baseless and leads me to believe you think way to much of yourself.

He also said that the concept of a martial art being updated for modern day street fighting is a marketing ploy... yet, not only did you not bring any smoke to him, but you agreed with it.

However, I did take your advise and did some "thinking on who I think the idiot is." Didn't have to think too deep, though, to know it isn't me.

You'd better think deeper about that if you can claim with a straight face that a man is more dangerous because he watched a Chuck Norris flick last night.

 

[Steve]

The difference is this - Back in the old days, martial arts was not generally taught to thugs and other commoners, so few had any formal fighting instruction. Additionally, there were no movies, YouTube, or TV, so even this informal instruction was not available. Nowadays, more of those one might have to fight have access to seeing and learning fighting techniques and have the ability to practice them at a school or home or gang crib. Therefore, a higher percentage of potential attackers have martial training and ability than in the past. Kenpo is a quick, efficient style that has the capability of handling this situation, as do several other styles. Of course, as often previously discussed, the individual's skill and fighting spirit are paramount.

Is this something you think is true, or is it something that is independently verifiable? It sounds a little far fetched to me.

First, you say that bad guys train in martial arts more now than in the past. Do you have any evidence to support that?
Also, are you saying that bad guys didn't know how to fight because they didn't have a formal training regimen? Because that's a logical leap.
Are you saying that formal training is better than informal training? Again, I'd say that's debatable, at least.

More than anything, I'm not understanding the conclusion. I mean, let's say that your assertions are accurate... that bad guys today receive more formal training than the bad guys of the past. So, presumably, they are better trained and more capable. Are you suggesting that they aren't training in Kenpo?

 

[Buka]

Wait up y'all...before you guys start bashing. Let's talk about this and ponder.

I've studied Kenpo, both Parker and Tracy...long enough to go from wow, look at my cool black gi and patches, man I'm the next American Ninja...then to went to...him this is cool, these moves are so deadly, I can't use it all in a tournament and my sensi is a bad ***, so bad *** he can take on multiple people in a bar fight will texting...then went, well, these moves are ok, but will they really work? Then went to question them and restudy them....pressure test and reapply...then went...hmmm, well they don't all work, but I still look cool in my black GI and my strikes are fast now, maybe I didn't waste all my time and money.

Then went, f#$% these katas and...let me just box, kick and grapple...then went...let me reexamine Kenpo, then went, yea maybe I'll try some Kung Fu (southern fist) hey this is cool...let me try black tiger kung fu...hey this cool...wait a minute..wasnt't my kenpo supposed to be Kung Fu...or quanfa...neither of these looked like my Kenpo...then went, wait minute, what was the whole point of my kenpo journey? Then went, will I entered not being able to move or strike... hmm I can do that now.. and pretty decent. Bullshido or not, maybe it wasn't so bad.


My point is we have an art that is based on some dude named Mitose, who has a shady background, and other named Chow, whose background seems a little more solid, but has lots of gaps...then you add in Parker, who let's face it was more business man than martial artist, who put together a curriculum that is supposedly a mix of Japanese and Chinese systems...but is it? I mean, yes a block is a block, a punch a punch, and kick a kick, but is American Kenpo really based off Japanese and Chinese systems, perhaps, but to what degree?

If we took out the Japanese techniques out of American Kenpo, how much would be left? And from what is left, how much is truly quanfa, and how much is parker bullshido?

Similarly, if we took out the quanfa/kung fu out of American Kenpo, what would remain? And from what is left, how much is OK Karate, and how much is Parker Bullshido.

I don't know gents, take basic strikes, stances, and holds, and blocks out of the system, and you have 200 and something techniques. Some are decent, other very questionable.

Anyways, what are peoples thoughts on this? And yes, before someone says, aren't all MA fake? I mean, at some point, some dude said hey, look at that tiger...now check this out, this is called a tiger claw and hit his buddy ..of course after recovering from the tiger claw strike, his friend watched a snake kill a rat...and a few days alter retaliated with a snake finger strike to his freind's throat..and bam kung fu was born haha.


BTW I am convinced if Parker was creating kenpo, say not 1960-1980, but let's say 2000's, we would all be on this forum calling it Bullshido. Especially since Parker would not look good in MMA shorts...I don't think anyone would have even taken the dude seriously, and we certainly would not be taking his friend/former friend in his checkered GI seriously either,..btw has anyone actually seen Al Tracy's son in his Florida dojo... if that guy couldnt turn his son into a proper fighter/martial artist...why would anyone trust his style.

CHANGE MY MIND.

Wait up y'all...before you guys start bashing. Let's talk about this and ponder.

I've studied Kenpo, both Parker and Tracy...long enough to go from wow, look at my cool black gi and patches, man I'm the next American Ninja...then to went to...him this is cool, these moves are so deadly, I can't use it all in a tournament and my sensi is a bad ***, so bad *** he can take on multiple people in a bar fight will texting...then went, well, these moves are ok, but will they really work? Then went to question them and restudy them....pressure test and reapply...then went...hmmm, well they don't all work, but I still look cool in my black GI and my strikes are fast now, maybe I didn't waste all my time and money.

Then went, f#$% these katas and...let me just box, kick and grapple...then went...let me reexamine Kenpo, then went, yea maybe I'll try some Kung Fu (southern fist) hey this is cool...let me try black tiger kung fu...hey this cool...wait a minute..wasnt't my kenpo supposed to be Kung Fu...or quanfa...neither of these looked like my Kenpo...then went, wait minute, what was the whole point of my kenpo journey? Then went, will I entered not being able to move or strike... hmm I can do that now.. and pretty decent. Bullshido or not, maybe it wasn't so bad.


My point is we have an art that is based on some dude named Mitose, who has a shady background, and other named Chow, whose background seems a little more solid, but has lots of gaps...then you add in Parker, who let's face it was more business man than martial artist, who put together a curriculum that is supposedly a mix of Japanese and Chinese systems...but is it? I mean, yes a block is a block, a punch a punch, and kick a kick, but is American Kenpo really based off Japanese and Chinese systems, perhaps, but to what degree?

If we took out the Japanese techniques out of American Kenpo, how much would be left? And from what is left, how much is truly quanfa, and how much is parker bullshido?

Similarly, if we took out the quanfa/kung fu out of American Kenpo, what would remain? And from what is left, how much is OK Karate, and how much is Parker Bullshido.

I don't know gents, take basic strikes, stances, and holds, and blocks out of the system, and you have 200 and something techniques. Some are decent, other very questionable.

Anyways, what are peoples thoughts on this? And yes, before someone says, aren't all MA fake? I mean, at some point, some dude said hey, look at that tiger...now check this out, this is called a tiger claw and hit his buddy ..of course after recovering from the tiger claw strike, his friend watched a snake kill a rat...and a few days alter retaliated with a snake finger strike to his freind's throat..and bam kung fu was born haha.


BTW I am convinced if Parker was creating kenpo, say not 1960-1980, but let's say 2000's, we would all be on this forum calling it Bullshido. Especially since Parker would not look good in MMA shorts...I don't think anyone would have even taken the dude seriously, and we certainly would not be taking his friend/former friend in his checkered GI seriously either,..btw has anyone actually seen Al Tracy's son in his Florida dojo... if that guy couldnt turn his son into a proper fighter/martial artist...why would anyone trust his style.

CHANGE MY MIND.

I'm not going to try and change your mind, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I liked Ed Parker a great deal. He did a lot for me and a lot of folks I know. And we weren't even his students. He didn't have to do any of that, but he did. I think you would have liked him.

And he could fight like a son of a *****.

 

[Rusty B]

And he could fight like a son of a *****.

Only speaking for myself, that part is not in question for me; nor whether or not kenpo is legit or effective.

What IS in question is whether or not there is anything now, that didn't exist a century ago, that a martial art can be updated to take into account.

Other than ludicrous claims that people are more dangerous because they saw some kung fu on TV, or "everybody" is taking martial arts these days (which wouldn't matter, because you spar with your fellow martial artists at the dojo anyway)... I still have yet to see an answer.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Is this something you think is true, or is it something that is independently verifiable? It sounds a little far fetched to me.

First, you say that bad guys train in martial arts more now than in the past. Do you have any evidence to support that?
Also, are you saying that bad guys didn't know how to fight because they didn't have a formal training regimen? Because that's a logical leap.
Are you saying that formal training is better than informal training? Again, I'd say that's debatable, at least.

More than anything, I'm not understanding the conclusion. I mean, let's say that your assertions are accurate... that bad guys today receive more formal training than the bad guys of the past. So, presumably, they are better trained and more capable. Are you suggesting that they aren't training in Kenpo?

I think the idea is that because bad guys get more formal training, that means that the system needs to be better. So if system A was good enough to beat people back when people had no clue about fighting, now that people do it doesn't work anymore. So you need an improved system to take into account that you might fight against someone who actually nows how to fight, and also adapt to the changes in fighting style that have happened over the years (pre-UFC stuff doesn't work as well anymore in comp, for instance).

Kinda similar to an argument I've heard about BJJ. If you took someone who was an world champ of BJJ in the mid-90s, and placed them into a modern tournament, they wouldn't do well. Due to a combination of BJJ itself evolving, making some things that used to work obsolete, and larger popularity resulting in a larger talent pool, raising the quality of the competition. Now take that argument and apply it to self-defense.

Note: I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the argument; I've gone back and forth on my thinking about it a few times. Just explaining it.

 

[Rusty B]

I think the idea is that because bad guys get more formal training, that means that the system needs to be better. So if system A was good enough to beat people back when people had no clue about fighting, now that people do it doesn't work anymore. So you need an improved system to take into account that you might fight against someone who actually nows how to fight, and also adapt to the changes in fighting style that have happened over the years (pre-UFC stuff doesn't work as well anymore in comp, for instance).

But, again - and this is, like, my third or fourth time saying this - you spar with your fellow martial artists at the dojo anyway. ALL martial artists have ALWAYS been trained to fight other martial artists. As a matter of fact, this is one of the most common arguments used by people who question the effectiveness of traditional martial arts.

Kinda similar to an argument I've heard about BJJ. If you took someone who was an world champ of BJJ in the mid-90s, and placed them into a modern tournament, they wouldn't do well. Due to a combination of BJJ itself evolving, making some things that used to work obsolete, and larger popularity resulting in a larger talent pool, raising the quality of the competition. Now take that argument and apply it to self-defense.

Yeah, but... if we're talking about competitive sports, rules change all the time and fighters have to adjust accordingly.

Note: I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the argument; I've gone back and forth on my thinking about it a few times. Just explaining it.

Ah, got it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

There are two updates that I think without a doubt are needed for a self-defense based school.

The first is what punisher already said. Something that's made leaps and bounds in the last few decades is the field of psychology. And a lot of that is used to manipulate others, de-escalate, and by LEO for hostage situations and the like. All of that is useful and I would bet that older systems didn't have as much of that (or were based around myths more than now)

The second is a change in weapon defense focus. Not sure what weapons used to be used, but there should be more of a focus on guns then there was when kenpo at least was created (1940s). Guns are more advanced than they were, and I assume concealed guns are more popular then they were in the 1940s or earlier. So if I saw an ad advertising a school as modern day, those would be the two things (along with possibly a larger focused on ground fighting just due to trends) that I would expect to see.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

But, again - and this is, like, my third or fourth time saying this - you spar with your fellow martial artists at the dojo anyway. ALL martial artists have ALWAYS been trained to fight other martial artists. As a matter of fact, this is one of the most common arguments used by people who question the effectiveness of traditional martial arts.



Yeah, but... if we're talking about competitive sports, rules change all the time and fighters have to adjust accordingly.



Ah, got it.

I laughed when I saw the Ah, got it. Glad I added that note in.

 

[Rusty B]

Guns are more advanced than they were, and I assume concealed guns are more popular then they were in the 1940s or earlier.

Are you sure about that? Probably the most popular and most widely used semi-automatic pistol used to this day - i.e., the 1911 - became available in, well, 1911. Often affectionately referred to as "the pistol that won two world wars." And it's not the first semi-automatic pistol. The double action .38 special has been around longer than that, and is still used to this day.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Are you sure about that? Probably the most popular and most widely used semi-automatic pistol used to this day - i.e., the 1911 - became available in, well, 1911. Often affectionately referred to as "the pistol that won two world wars." And it's not the first semi-automatic pistol. The double action .38 special has been around longer than that, and is still used to this day.

I'm not actually. I know very little about guns, which is why I assume it.

I just looked it up, and apparently since the 60s has been hovering between 40 and 50% per gallup, so I guess my assumption was wrong. And I'll take your word for it regarding pistols/what's commonly used. So then the biggest thing would be the incorporation of psychology, if the goal of the system is self-defense.

 

[Rusty B]

I'm not actually. I know very little about guns, which is why I assume it.

I just looked it up, and apparently since the 60s has been hovering between 40 and 50% per gallup, so I guess my assumption was wrong. And I'll take your word for it regarding pistols/what's commonly used. So then the biggest thing would be the incorporation of psychology, if the goal of the system is self-defense.

I'm no expert on guns myself, just in case someone here who is wants to come tear me a new one.

There are many different brands and models of 1911, double action 38. sp revolvers, etc... and yes, some are of higher quality than others, and even the ballistics of the .45 ACP and the .38 SPC have improved over the years.

However, to the degree that it should affect civilian martial arts training, I'd say, is pretty nil. I seriously doubt that kenpo, or any other martial art, is going to tell that you can afford to take more risks with a guy who has a Hi-Point than a guy who has a Ruger, or that you should even check to see what kind of gun the guy has in the first place.

 

[isshinryuronin]

He also said that the concept of a martial art being updated for modern day street fighting is a marketing ploy... yet, not only did you not bring any smoke to him, but you agreed with it.

I did not address the marketing issue at all, much less agree or disagree. Please quote me where you say I agreed with this particular statement.

You'd better think deeper about that if you can claim with a straight face that a man is more dangerous because he watched a Chuck Norris flick last night.

I said nothing of the kind. However, I believe the widespread exposure of MA to the general population has led to more people getting some knowledge, that if they practice it (formally or informally) their fighting skills will be somewhat better than if they saw or knew nothing of it at all.

First, you say that bad guys train in martial arts more now than in the past. Do you have any evidence to support that?

I only rely on my intuitive comment above, which (to me) seems very reasonable.

Are you suggesting that they aren't training in Kenpo?

I did not address this point at all. They can be training in any kind of style (or non-style).

ALL martial artists have ALWAYS been trained to fight other martial artists.

This is not true. Original karate was used (as previously mentioned by Punisher and myself) as a civil self defense method against random aggressive individuals (some of which may have had some MA training.) To say "ALWAYS been trained to fight other martial artists" would only be (somewhat) true post-1920's after it was introduced into the Okinawan/Japanese school systems sport karate developed. Keep in mind that tournament sport karate is much different than true Okinawan karate as originally (and sometimes still) taught.

 

[Steve]

I only rely on my intuitive comment above, which (to me) seems very reasonable.

I did not address this point at all. They can be training in any kind of style (or non-style).
.

Hmmm... so is Kempo gonna help protect you against bad guys 2.0 (aka, formally trained bad guys)? I think you're being oddly cagey about this.

For what it's worth, if your training only helps against someone who is incompetent, that's not great training. I mean, the entire idea of "civilian defense" training or whatever you call it seems very silly.

1: So, I understand you're a carpenter. Can you build me a deck better than I could built it myself?
2: Well, that depends. Have you ever built anything out of wood before?
1: No.
2: Then the answer is maybe!

 

[punisher73]

This actually IS a martial art. It's called jailhouse rock.

Not talking about that. Jailhouse Rock/52 Blocks basically came about from the kung fu craze and incorporated elements of kung fu (and some other arts) into western boxing. I would agree that it is taught and trained as a martial art. Also, VERY few people are trained in it (comparision of other formalized training).

Not everything that is done in a jail/prison is "jailhouse rock" or "52 blocks". 99% of the inmates/gang members nowadays wouldn't even know what those terms were in regards to actual fighting unless they heard the references to it in some older rap songs.

 

[isshinryuronin]

entire idea of "civilian defense" training or whatever you call it seems very silly.

This idea comes from Hanshin Patrick McCarthy, karate's most respected historian and researcher, and formerly one of the top tournament fighters in the USA. He is fluent in Japanese, has lived overseas, and has worked and studied with martial art masters at the highest levels in Japan, Okinawa and China. He is best known for his translation and commentary of the Bubishi which is one of the earliest writings on the roots and concepts of what we now call karate.

What seems very silly is stating that just because karate was developed to fight in non-military (civil) self-defense situations, it is somehow not able to defend against other trained fighters. A good martial artist should be able to handle trained or untrained attackers (sometimes those not formally trained can be more dangerous).

 

[Steve]

What seems very silly is stating that just because karate was developed to fight in non-military (civil) self-defense situations, it is somehow not able to defend against other trained fighters. A good martial artist should be able to handle trained or untrained attackers (sometimes those not formally trained can be more dangerous).

If this is what you intended to say earlier, I think we're saying the same thing. Your earlier posts appeared to suggest that martial artists historically trained only to defend themselves from untrained "thugs" etc. I'm glad to learn that isn't what you meant.

 

[Cynik75]

Looking at this videos I can say kenpo master Fred Villari is a moron: